: ON - Ottawa, Vanier, Gloucester, Orleans - OTA
2012-05-19, 05:07 PM
Unfortunately, it's a common misconception that ATSC signals are uncompressed. When I first started in OTA, I believed the same thing. The reality is that they are indeed compressed. And yes, they are less compressed than digital cable or satellite signals.
The Terk may work well in your attic at this time of year. But what about the winter, when signal propagation is weakened by cold and the pile of snow on your roof?
Global is moving to UHF and and a much higher ERP soon. This should therefore resolve reception issues for many with this station.
I have no experience with the CS2--perhaps someone that has can offer opinions of it. Have you checked the antenna chart?
2012-05-19, 05:25 PM
I guess a pile of snow on the roof is a concern though not if I point the antenna through the bedroom window. :)
The CS2 is recommended indoor antenna in stampeder's chart, though once it's in the attic I guess I can look at more outdoors-y antennas. I haven't looked that much at that many antennas, I cut off Rogers cable over a year ago so I'm trying not to invest too much (money, effort, cable runs, ugliness, etc.) into TV -- TV is a bit of a waste of time so limiting the options seems like a win-win. :)
2012-05-19, 08:33 PM
I bought two set top antenna and both have booster amplifiers but neither gets more than a few
lines when scanning over the stations from 1-125.
First of all, as majortom suggested, if you scanned up to 125, you will have been scanning for cable channels.
Secondly, I highly reccomend avoiding indoor antennas that haves "booster amp" as they are not only unnecessary but are typically of poor quality and will usually make things worse. Stick with an unamplified antenna and you will likely get better results.
If you can publish a link to your TVFool results, we can help you select an antenna.
2012-05-23, 02:51 AM
Some initial observations from having a chance to try my indoor setup again.
First, I had left the Terk antenna pointed mostly at CF since HC stations were coming in better (even though it's omnidirectional, I figure there's probably still a "front" and I thought maybe this would help). Some stations were still perfect but a couple were worse than when I tried before, e.g. SRC was perfect before and now pixellating, same for a couple of others. In addition I was now getting CFGS (V) though quality <20% so not useful. That does bring me up to finding 13 of 14 Canadian stations though not all watchable. I didn't fool around with antenna positioning as I wanted to start with CJOH.
CJOH was still bad with the Terk so I tried the solution suggested uptopic, I disconnected the Terk and connected the Philips loop-and-dipole antenna ($7 with coupon at FactoryDirect about 2 years ago) to see if CJOH would work. Got a perfect signal on 13 (100%/100%) so a UVSJ might work. But then I discovered some of the UHF stations were better with the Philips than the Terk! The loop was positioned roughly the same as the Terk was, I didn't have time to move it around.
Still no sign of Global even with the dipole, I did both an auto scan and a manual scan of ch6, with no result. BTW the Terk appears to support only high VHF (is that the right term? 7-13) and not 2-6, based on really digging through the website (it says 174-216MHz and 470-698MHz). The Philips manual doesn't specify its frequencies, but does define VHF as 30-300MHz.
I guess I need to try different positions for the antenna(e) including up in the attic and possibly a bigger/more sophisticated antenna, since the trees will continue to thicken and then there's snow in winter.
My TiVo Premiere should be here this week and using a TiVo, I'm less concerned with missing a station (i.e. Global) or a station that's never watchable (e.g. V) than with predictability (if a station is good I'd like it always good, and if bad, always bad).
Thanks for the help so far, I'm learning a lot!
2012-05-23, 09:52 AM
If you can get all the UHF stations with the Philips, then stay with it. 9 and 6 will move to 33 and 14 later this year, so as long as you can get 13 on VHF, you're fine.
2012-05-23, 10:20 AM
But then I discovered some of the UHF stations were better with the Philips than the Terk! The loop was positioned roughly the same as the Terk was, I didn't have time to move it around.
I am not surprised. "Omnidirectional" antennas sacrifice performance to be able to receive in all directions. Even a simple loop will outperform it if aimed even reasonably well.
Still no sign of Global even with the dipole, I did both an auto scan and a manual scan of ch6, with no result.
The dipole needs to be about 6' long to optimize reception on channel 6. It is very prone to interference from electronics and motors however so it can be very difficult to receive with an indoor antenna. As tvlurker said, they plan to move to channel 14 (hopefully within the next year) which will make things much easier.
BTW the Terk appears to support only high VHF (is that the right term? 7-13) and not 2-6, based on really digging through the website (it says 174-216MHz and 470-698MHz).
Not surprising. As I said, you optimally need an antenna about 6' long for channel 6 and more than 9' long for channel 2. Remove VHF-LO and things get considerably smaller.
2012-05-23, 02:03 PM
Thank you both. I'll see how well I can do with the Philips, it used to be decent pre-switchover (maybe 4-5 stations downstairs, similar upstairs). After the switch to digital I was getting as few as no stations with it, though without the kind of planning it's getting now. It would be ironic if it worked better than the Terk, though $7 is not a reflection of its normal price I think (around the time I bought it from FD, one of the US daily deal sites had it for the same price plus about $7 shipping).
Am I going to have trouble positioning the Philips for both HC and CF? They're about 120° apart so it seems reasonable that a directional antenna might have trouble with both. I can't be running upstairs to reposition the antenna every time I want to switch from a local station to a "foreign" (Toronto) station, especially with a TiVo. :)
The dipole needs to be about 6' long to optimize reception on channel 6.
Don't know how long the Philips is, but I'll try extending it all the way and see what happens (both to 6 and to 13). I'm curious why CJOH would be staying on VHF other than for historical reasons, clearly 13 is the most accessible VHF station but it seems a lot of serious antennas don't do VHF at all (e.g. ClearStream 2, though there's a CS2V variant).
Back from FL and having a few issues with 14.1 and 65.1 both too weak (they were both working fine when I left).
I connect the 950Q and noted 41.2. Did 6.1 get moved?
2012-05-29, 01:48 PM
^^^Both 14.1 and 65.1 are fine on my end. As for 6.1, they have applied to move to channel 14 and are waiting for CRTC approval (some tuners pick up 41.2 as Global SD, I gather 41 since that is their Toronto channel number).
2012-06-18, 10:04 PM
Update -- after posting months ago of my lack of success with the CM4221HD and CM4228HD last year, I got back on my roof and changed my configuration to a split VHF/UHF using the VIP302SR (that I found used on Kijiji last autumn) plus AntennaDirect's new DB4e going into the CM7777 separately. The VIP302SR is pointed to Camp Fortune; the DB4e to Herbert's Corners.
As mentioned before, my biggest issue has been multipath due to a variety of trees and high rise buildings blocking my line of sight to Herbert's Corners. I experimented with my SS-2000 from Winegard and found it to very, very good at unidirectional multipath. However, it cannot get any of the higher UHF channels through the backside, rendering it good for 13-1 only but entirely blocking 24, 30, 34, and 40-1.
While the VIP302SR is a no-brainer (at least while global is on VHF-Lo), the DB4e made the most sense when comparing the polar plots on their website against my TVFool:
DB4e datasheet: Gain vs. direction
As a result of the change, I can now get all local Ottawa channels except 42-1 and 65-1 (which are both still bouncing all over on the signal meter due to multipath). WNPI scans in but I can't get a signal.
Furthermore, the signal strength for the channels I get is phenomenal:
11-1: couldn't get on the CM4228HD, getting 69% on DB4e
13-1: could barely get on CM4228HD, getting 92% on VIP302SR
40-1: got a decent signal on CM4228HD, getting 78% on DB4e
43-1: couldnt' get on CM4228HD, getting 88% on DB4e
65-1: got a strong signal on CM4228HD, can't find a good position on DB4e
All of these are measurements through a Panasonic P50ST30 on-board signal meter. I am in the centretown area.
I don't really care about 42, but I think I will grab a Join-Tenna and see if something highly directional such as the AntennaCraft HBU-22 or the Antennas Direct SR15 can conquer the multipath to get 65-1 CityTV in as a third antenna in the setup. Given how well CityTV came in on my Winegard SS-2000, I suspect signals bouncing off the back side of the DB4e are the culprits for failed 65-1 reception.
Not to sound like a shill, both the VIP302SR and DB4e perform very well. It's too bad the VIP302SR is no longer in production.
My only question to the forum: what level of signal loss does inserting a Join-Tenna into the path add?
2012-06-24, 03:40 PM
hey miller, I have almost the same setup here in London, except I run a Research Communications preamp and have both my DB4e and VIP302SR on a rotor. Both are very good antennas.
Nice to see the decent results.
2012-07-08, 09:57 PM
Having had the new antenna setup going for a few weeks, it has brought a welcome and consistent improvement in the reception. I'm awaiting a Ch 17 Join-tenna to arrive from Warren Electronics so I can consistently get CityTV.
One problem/blessing is that the DB4e can now intermittently receive WNPI/PBS during cloudy conditions (while my old CM4228HD very rarely could). In watching PBS, it brought back memories of all the good programming I used to watch growing up. Austin City Limits anyone? Now I want consistent reception. :p
In looking at my TVfool, it shows that WNPI reception is a double edge diffraction, and pretty marginal:
My question is:
(1) Would adding a specialized antenna for WNPI help (e.g. something like an XG91) for addressing 2Edge situation?
(2) In reading what I can find about 2Edge, the guidance on positioning the antenna seems limited. I've found a few references (here (http://www.*************/t/1157231/2edge) and here (http://www.dtvusaforum.com/dtv-hdtv-reception-antenna-discussion/20594-1edge-vs-2edge.html) and here (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html) but deducing theory into tangible advice is one step beyond my comprehension.
(3) Is there a realistic shot at getting a solid WNPI signal in the Centertown/Glebe area? If not, what about WCFE?
2012-07-08, 10:37 PM
There is a slight "hill" to the south of Ottawa that blocks LOS to NY. So unless it bounces off clouds or you can put an antenna on top of a tall building, you don't have any hope of catching those signals.
2012-07-09, 09:27 AM
MaxHeadroom--thanks for the reminder -- now I recall reading about the ridge a while ago but since forgot about it until your post.
So are there any locations within the Kanata - Ottawa - Gloucester greater urban boundary who can consistently receive WNPI?
2012-07-09, 03:04 PM
Many in Kanata and west can receive WNPI reliably with the right setup. Those in the east end may see similar results (though they may be better off with WCFE). It is only those in central Ottawa that have issues.
Regarding the ridge, I've noticed here in Blackburn that neighbours at >80m elevation (based on Google maps) seem to receive WNPI just fine during the day. I'm at 73m and generally lose WNPI during the day around 7-8am, regaining it in the evening.
However, just recently, a neighbour at identical elevation installed a HD8800 and gets WCFE reasonably well (but not WNPI at all). I'm hoping to check out his setup further as I've always assumed the ridge is my point of failure during the day.
2012-07-10, 01:32 PM
^^^WCFE is significantly east of WNPI. From Blackburn, WCFE may be peaking around the eastern edge of the ridge where as WNPI may be blocked without sufficient elevation.
2012-07-20, 05:17 PM
I'm pretty new to this antenna stuff and trying to learn...I've read and learned a lot on the forum.
Here is my TV Fool Report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d9900e04b41ad76
What I am trying to figure out what type of antenna to buy...my preference is an indoor and not too big, as most something that I would mount in the attic. I looked at the decision chart, and was thinking that the Wineguard sharp shooter might be a good choice.
Thanks in advance.
2012-07-23, 12:23 PM
Hi Redroofbluedoor and welcome.
What type of building are you in and what type of siding/roofing do you have? What direction does the room face that you would put an indoor antenna in? Are there any large buildings/trees/etc nearby? That information is important to know before I can make any suggestions about an indoor/attic antenna, but given that the two towers are about 150 degrees apart and the signals from CF are about 20 to 30dB stronger than those from HC, I would probably lean towards a C2 or a dual (or quad) bay antenna for UHF and a dipole for VHF.
2012-07-27, 06:21 PM
I haven't been able to get global in fallingbrook Orleans since the transition... I did a scan today and to my amazement I was getting channel 6 first time ever. Can anyone confirm if the channel transition is happening?