: ON - Ottawa, Vanier, Gloucester, Orleans - OTA
2011-04-05, 11:11 PM
I think another way to look at it is i just happen to use 3 tuners with worse first stage amp noise figures than my cm7777 and kt200. In this case inserting a preamp anywhere before the tuner would benefit me. This is what I saw every time provided I attenuated properly at the tuner input if needed (just for the 2250). Actually the 2250 is one I did not test with and without preamp.
2011-04-05, 11:16 PM
Hwp would you mind linking your previous Hull thread post, possibly one with your tvfool ? Or just create a new one there and link it here ?
2011-04-05, 11:51 PM
Heemu could you repost your tvfool link ? It does not work for me.
Based on that you can decide if you have a shot at us channels, which ones like Wnyf and if you wish to get global on channel 6. You may need 2 antennas in the end, but not because of pointing but to cover UHF and VHF frequency ranges.
7777 and 7778 are very similar, it's better to match your gain with your needs - depends in your case of how many tuners you plan to have in addition to this length of cable. The 7777 is always an easy recommendation if you don't know as it has higher gain with a lower noise figure. Go figure... It also has 2 inputs for UHF and VHF antennas (if needed) AND we found the included fm trap to be priceless here in Ottawa as per backpackster's findings. Using a Kitz here requires an fm trap in front of it which diminishes the Kitz appeal in Ottawa.
2011-04-06, 12:11 AM
After consideration, I think i'm going to stick with my Terk HDTVa...
It's picking up everything I want, short of Global and CHCH (CHCH didn't come in on my old antenna either, Global came in slightly better but still wasn't watchable)
The analog channels are all watchable (short of Global and CHCH) which is more than my old antenna could do. The digital are all watchable, but Citytv and whichever Omni is 66 requires some creative antenna placement :)
I do recommend it if you're in my situation and can't do outdoor. it seems like a great INDOOR antenna as long as you have somewhat line of sight.
I'm at Rideau and Chapel, 3rd floor facing south.
2011-04-06, 12:24 AM
I appreciate the useful comments and suggestions from HWP, tvlurker, flavoie and roger1818.
HWP, your point about the prices is well-noted. Most "good" indoor antennas are about the same price as the outdoor ones. I have seen the outdoor antennas being sold by The Source and on amazon.ca. Any other retailers that anybody could recommend?
tvlurker, my analog signal is not the greatest (lots of ghosting), but the little set top antenna gets us all of the channels. On the new digital TV (a Sony Bravia), we get all of the same analog channels plus digital CBC from the same position, suggesting that maybe the digital tuner in the Bravia isn't the greatest?!? When I used an indoor amplified antenna, depending on the position, I sometimes got digital cityTV and OmniTV.
From the antenna decision chart, the recommendation for post-transitional Canadian TV is a Winegard HD769XP line. Does anyone have experience with this one?
Also, as the price difference between the CM4228HD and CM3679 is not that great, can anyone recommend the CM3679?
Thanks very much for all of your help.
I don't believe we make retailer recommendations in this thread, but you can find another thread at Digital Home that discusses where to buy locally and online. There are a few places in Ottawa:
Your Bravia's tuner is fine. The antenna is lacking. If you can get something up on the roof, you'll be thrilled with your results.
As far as antenna selection, you're referring to the right place (antenna chart). If you go with an outdoor rooftop antenna, how would you consider mounting it? Install a tower? Strap it to a chimney? Tripod on roof? This consideration may help you decide which is the best antenna to go with.
2011-04-06, 12:41 PM
Thanks to everyone contributing in this forum and special thanks to Flavoie for taking time to address my concerns:
My TVfool is:
To build a GH antenna with NARODs Nikiml's website refers to 1/4" dia aluminium rod, I wonder if I use 10 Gauge copper instead is the design still valid?
2011-04-06, 02:17 PM
heemu, we cover your local reception issues and results in this thread but for actually constructing GH antennas you'll need to find the existing threads in the Antenna Research And Development Forum (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186%22) and ask the experts in there. :)
2011-04-06, 02:53 PM
rabbitears, do a search of "ottawa" in the OTA Ontario shopping thread HWP gave you. You will at least 1 reputable dealer with items in stock in Ottawa.
2011-04-06, 03:06 PM
heemu, based on your TVFool, with WNYF at -13.6NM you can forget about WNYF (Fox/CBS) unless you can build an antenna that can have a 4dB better gain than a 4228hd at UHF channel 18. It could be a tall challenge and you may end up with a very big antenna. I'll help analyzing your TVFool here so you know what channels you need to look for, then you can go back in the Antenna R&D threads to find what type of antenna fits your physical needs and the channels you want.
What you should look for:
channel 18: Is a 18dB+ gain antenna at that channel possible ?
channel 6 (Global): to get it you need to cover the VHF low range
channels 9, 13(SRC,CTV post-transition): to get it you need to cover the VHF Hi range.
all other channels: any UHF antenna would cover the rest of the channels.
You can decide to have more than 1 antenna to cover VHF and UHF. You may find the higher the gain, the bigger the antenna...
2011-04-06, 05:17 PM
rabbitears, before selecting an antenna in the chart, try to find their size/weight. Some are monsters which by definition require a very strong support structure (like a tower) and a lot of room around if you want to aim them in a specific direction. Size/Weight is one of the reasons some UHF-only antennas are popular over others; they can be more practical to install by individuals like us. Some will prefer a single monster antenna, and others would prefer 2 smaller antennas, just for install reasons.
2011-04-06, 10:41 PM
Thanks very much for all of the tips. Sorry for the faux pas about asking about retailers on this thread. I have check out the link provided by HWP and searched as flavoie recommended and found a couple of retailers in Ottawa.
flavoie, I checked out your ingenious stallation(s) on another site and wish I had a play structure, but my kids aren't' old enough yet... ;-)
HWP, I am thinking of a chimney mount as we have the TV in the living room (where the chimney is) and it would be the shortest route into the house. I just have to figure out how to get the cabling into the living room from outside in a decent manner. My plan B would be an eave mount. I would like to avoid mounting directly on the roof if I could.
flavoie, thanks very much for the comment on the weight/size of the various antennas. I hadn't really thought about this and will definitely look up these specs. I now understand why the UHF only antennas are so popular and why all the fuss of Global being on channel 6, thus leading some people to have two antennas instead of one to receive both UHF and VHF signals).
For UHF reception, is the CM4228 recommended over the HD8800 and DB-8?
Now, I have to do some more research, check out prices and make some decisions. I will report back here about reception when I get to that stage.
Thanks for your generous assistance.
My vote is with a chimney mounted 4228hd with Channel Master pre-amp 7778 or 7777 - whichever works better for those aiming at the USA through the Herbert's Corner transmitters.
Quality RG6 cable - not bought from a big-box store, Thomas & Betts connectors, and a quality splitter if you have multiple TVs. Try to get all this stuff from your antennas supplier - they are more likely to sell you quality product.
The 4228hd will not be too big for a chimney, and will have some gain for channels 9, 11?, and 13 after the digital transition. Cross your fingers for Global. If it doesn't work, try a rotator.
2011-04-06, 11:27 PM
Rabbitears, creating your own tvfool report based on your location can help us help you. You'll have an idea if you have a shot at any USA channels and at what channels, then it can help select the antenna(s) based on the channels you want and where they are.
Rabitears TV Fool (no antenna height specified)
2011-04-07, 01:04 AM
great, in this case i would not bother with WNYF, and focus on get something good at channel 23 for WNPI(PBS). The hd8800 has an edge for channel 23 but does not have VHF-Hi coverage. With a 4228hd you'd likely get the VHF-Hi channels from the back of the antenna if you pointed south to get channel 23 and the HC channels. Right now they would look bad in analog but after the transition they'd be OK.
Do you want Global ? you could not get it with either hd8800 or cm4228hd. You'd need a big VHF/UHF combo antenna or use 1 antenna for VHF and another for UHF, or 1 antenna for VHF Lo and another for VHF Hi and UHF.
Let's do some more math...
For our guy, Rabbitears, in order to avoid mounting a large low-vhf antenna, do you think he would be able to get away with a VHF-High Winegard YA-1713 directed at Camp Fortune and still somehow pull in Global? I know it's cut to the wrong lenth, but it is still a lot of metal in the sky pointing in the right direction. If the answer is yes, then I would go with:
Winegard YA-1713 pointed at Camp Fortune
Winegard hd8800 pointed at rf23 (PBS)
Channel Master 7777 (or 7778) pre-amp -- whichever the Ottawa people say will not risk overloading you since rf23 is not far off the direction of the Herbert's Corners transmitters.
Mounted on your chimney.
If you don't care about Global, then a 4228hd pointed toward USA with pre-amp.
I know it's not the "best" antenna choice, but might it work? He wants a chimney install. At my cottage, I manage to get a watchable analog rf4 CBOT using my amped 4228hd.
2011-04-07, 10:53 AM
Global being the harder to reach channel, i would consider a VHF Lo&Hi antenna like the VIP302SR (or even bigger antennas) instead of the 1713 . The 1713 is made for the 7-13 range, so it is understandably inferior on the 2-6 range.
my "small" vip302sr would get a full 3dB gain above the 1713. And you could do even better if you went for a bigger antenna.
2011-04-07, 10:56 AM
You should check panamark's pictures. He had a vip302sr mounted below a 4228 equivalent (different versions of 8bay bowtie antennas).
2011-04-07, 10:59 AM
On second thought, the 1713 might well be good enough if on the roof, pointed at CF and preamped...
EDIT: i have no clue. I was reading raw gain and not net gain charts when i said this. Someone from the Kanata thread has a 1713, that would be a good gauge.