Thanks for the help with the antenna, perhaps when the roof is less of a life hazard :)

Well to mix it up just a bit I am pulling in Ch 6 on the setup. It's kinda poor but it's is there.

If I get a chance this weekend I'll remove the pre-amp from the line and do a scan to see if anything changes.

Also thanks to the storm last night my antenna is now pointing up at a pretty good angle.

I'm thinking about getting into the OTA as well. We use Boxee for most of our content consumption but with the Summer Olympics coming up, I'd like to have some "live" TV to supplement the streamed stuff.

Here is my biggest problem: my wife loves our house... and the outside aesthetics of our house and mounting an antenna anywhere on the outside would not end well for me. :D So, I was thinking of doing an attic installation. We live in a bungalow, so the antenna would be about 18 ft up under plywood and shingles.

Here is the TV Fool report (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d67d918f0e5869c).

I guess at this stage, I'm wondering if I could pull in any HD/digital signals given my location and attic install requirement? I'm willing to put something big in the attic.

Thanks!

The wife acceptance factor is the biggest piece of the installation and ensuring success.

An attic mount is never ideal versus outdoor. Look at the CM4221 and maybe using a satellite J-Mount to do the install. It would be no worst than a satellite install.

Failing that, I don't know how well an attic mount will be but I will have an idea shortly since I will be doing the same kind of install for a friend.

The other issue you have is being able to get an antenna into the attic but you should be okay to get Watertown and Kingston channels. Syracuse could be dicey.

Hab1, looking at your TVFool report, I susspect with an attic mount, you will currently only be able to receive PBS (WPBS), ABC (WWTI) and CBS (WWNY) in HD. WWNY also has FOX in SD as a sub channel. You may also be able to receive TVO (CICO-DT-26), but I gather it is still in SD for now.

Unfortunately, non of this will help you watch the Olympics in HD as you will only be able to receive CTV's analog broadcast (from Deseronto) and it will be difficult receiving NBC reliably without an outdoor antenna (and likely a large one) pointed south.

If you do want to try receiving NBC from your attic, I would recommend either a DB-8 or HD-8800 as they both come disassembled to easily get them into the attic for final assembly there. Neither receive VHF very well, so a separate antenna will likely be needed to receive WWNY (as well as CIII and CJOH).

Thank you both for the replies.

tlamothe, I'd love to hear how the attic install goes at your friends.

roger1818, I'll check out those antennas.

If you are not in a hurry I will be testing in you area mid Feb with a Y5 7-13 and DB4 with\without preamp attic and outside.

Definitely not in a rush, so I'll look forward to hearing your results.

Planning for family day weekend testing.

If you are not in a hurry I will be testing in you area mid Feb with a Y5 7-13 and DB4 with\without preamp attic and outside.
She cancelled on me last minute, will reschedule.

I tested DB4, y5 7-13 with HDp269 amp yesterday. Very disappointing results. Apparently there are only 4 DTV channels in the area, 7, 16, 28, and 50 totaling 8 with sub channels. There are 2 Fox stations 7-2 @ 480, 28-1 @ 720 that appear to be the same broadcast??? I tried each antenna then both then add amp no sign of Syracuse at all. Amp made no difference on DTV but added 28 and 15 analouge. 28 and 28-1 are same. Final deploy was DB4 only no amp, 8 DTV and 3 analogue. 11 was too strong and no way to get rid of all imperfections with outdoor set up. Wabbit ears work well on 11. No sign of 2 or 6 with the HI -VHF Y5.
So we have CBC, TVO, CBS, Fox, ABC, PBS, CW
MIA; CTV, Global, MyTV, NBC
Probably to do this right we will need rotor, trap 11, 32, 38 ( or wait for transition?) and fringe type heads @ 50ft.

wilspin, could you please either use either call-signs or use physical channel numbers? A TVFool report would also help (even if you provided it earlier an update is useful).

Which virtual channel 28 are you talking about? Is it WNYF-CD (on 35) or WNYF-LD (on 18)? WNYF-CD has Fox in HD where as WWNY-DT (on 7) and WNYF-LD have CBS in HD and Fox in SD. Other than the resolution, the Fox (and CBS for the later two) broadcasts are the same on all three channels.

You may have also been able to pick up CICO-DT-53 on 26 from Belleville, but once again a TVFool report would be helpful.

A VHF-LO antenna would be necessary to receive Global and CTV. This could be easily added and combined with an HLSJ, however these allocations are temporary and will most likely get changed if/when they move to DTV so it may not be worth the effort.

28-1 is RF35. No TVO on 26-1 from back side of antenna, 38 analogue is quite good. VHF-Lo too big for rental townhome. Must be sat footprint or squawking will occur.
fool;
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b862add8a427b

wilspin, first of all, that TVFool report is general for Kingston, so not of much use (reception results can vary drastically within a city).

Not surpised you didn't receive TVO on the back side of the antenna. The DB4 likely has a FB ratio of around 20dB, so if the TVFool report is close to accurate, the NM will likely be below 0dB.

As for VHF-LO, a simple dipole (or folded dipole) may be discrete enough to avoid squawking, especially if mounted low enough. ;) The source has a pair of rabbit ears on clearance that could be used (not intended for outdoor use, but you could cover the joints with silicone or something). May not give perfect reception, but likely better than what you are currently getting.

No TVO on 26-1 from back side of antenna, 38 analogue is quite good. VHF-Lo too big for rental townhome. Must be sat footprint or squawking will occur.

Wilspin,

Your Kingston test results seem pretty much correct on what I am able to receive on the setup at the house in Kingston. (antennas outside at good height on tower)

Re: Subject: TVO 26.1 - TV Ontario in *Digital* from Belleville:

However - With an old Radio shack / Antenna Craft 21" UFO Omni-directional antenna, off the side of the TV tower, approx 30 feet up, I pick up TVO 26.1 in digital SD from Belleville quite reliably, and with good signal strength (60-70% with this simple antenna).

This old 21" UFO antenna has a built-in Pre-amp and an FM Trap. It's an Omni-directional antenna and, given it's simplicity, does a very respectable job picking up all the locals and Watertown NY. ( 32 French Analog is a bit messed up, probably this powerful station, transmitter very close only a few miles away, is overloading the pre-amp in the UFO antenna - 38 TVO analog Kingston is good I think - 11 CBC CKWS analog is good (all local, near and powerful). 6 CJOH - CTV from Deseronto - still analog - so so staticky / noisy reception, I guess the UFO ant is not too great with VHF-LO)




Syracuse / Rochester - harder to get from Kingston.

Stuff furthur off - Like from Syracuse NY, 90 miles south of Kingston - is alot harder to receive, but I get some of them from time to time. Esp. at night with the other long range antenna I have at the top of the tower, approx 40 ft up. A Winegard UHF only, model HD9032 UHF only - long yagi with corner reflector, pointed straight south, with a really good UHF only, ultra low noise Pre-amp, Research Communications model pre-amp from the U.K.

Syracuse is intermittent for me. Syracuse signals are 2-edge, 90 miles, in the negative noise margins on my Kingston TV fool. Others may have better luck in Kingston area, I think, with Syracuse. Depends alot, I think, on location, setup, height, and conditions.

From Syracuse:
ABC 9 Syracuse - comes in intermittently - the most often.
CBS 5 Syracuse - comes in sometimes too - less often
NBC 3 Syracuse - comes in rarely - too bad, would like to have that one.

Rochester comes in from time to time - probably on tropo events for me ...but my antenna is not pointed exactly at it right now.

Hoping to set up a rotor sometime in the future.


VHF-LO:
Large antennas for receiveing VHF LO seem to be a problem for many.
One member is having luck getting some VHF-LO with larger, home made, well built loops with reflectors screens behind - in the attic. But mounted outside - even better results ... I'm sure.

Those loops may fall just under size restriction rules on town homes - not sure. (loop diameter approx 23" ? Made of 3/8" soft copper tube? See some of the designs on the forum. See Holl_Ands website too )

I am guessing a large loop with reflector, pointed at the transmitter, would probably perform better than my 21" UFO antenna on VHF LO. I should experiment back in Kingston to see. See if any picture improvement with a large loop on 6 CJOH CTV analog. ... or ... if able to get 2 - GLOBAL, still analog, from north of Kingston (Bancroft), more difficult, weaker, furthur away. Global 2 may need more gain - like a good VHF LO yagi - large antenna. Not sure.

Re: Possible Overloading for some in Kingston on locals: 38 TVO, 32 SRC French, 11 CBC CKWS ...

( member tlamothe also mentions it in an earlier post )

Wud be gud if someone made a simple UFO style antenna, or pre-amp, where the amplifier part of the pre-amp could be remotely switched in or out. And if switched OUT ... would still pass signals "unamplified".

I believe my RC - Research Communications pre-amp - still passes signal with the power injector switched OFF.

Also - the abilty to remotely switch IN or OUT the FM TRAP. Then that antenna or pre-amp might be used for FM reception / or rejection as well.

Overloading of local powerful signals ... a problem many may be having - all over.

Pre-Amp - on - amplifies. off - passes signals with no amplification.
(or how about 2 levels of amplification? 1. 12 dB 2. 24 db 3. off 0dB pass signal )

FM trap - on or off

Remotely ... and independently.


Wouldn't those be nice options to have ? On an antenna? Or a Pre-Amp.

^^^
It would be nice, but would add unnecessary cost. I say "unnecessary", as configuring an amp is typically a one time event.

Most TV viewers aren't using their antenna(s) for FM, so that's generally trapped. Adjustable gain amps are already sold (minus the remote option).

Though I suppose a no-power signal bypass would be handy in some circumstances....

I have often thought about putting a splitter at the head and pre amping one side and run 2 cables down to a/b switch. This would only work in suburban areas however.

6 CJOH - CTV from Deseronto - still analog - so so staticky / noisy reception, I guess the UFO ant is not too great with VHF-LO

I can confirm that these omnidirectional antennas aren't very good at VHF-LO. I have one in my attic here in Ottawa and Global on channel 6 was always my weakest station. I now use a 5Y6S for channel 6.

Their reception also rolled off for the upper UHF frequencies, but that isn't as much of a problem with the 700MHz band not being used anymore.

I can't say I highly recommend this antenna, but it does have its uses.

putting a splitter at the head and pre amping one side and run 2 cables down to a/b switch

Good idea!

So that suggests a pre-amp design that gives a couple outputs.


A first stage output, low power, good low noise, output from the first stage.
... and that output is not suseptible to overloading.
... and this output could be used alone or split a few times


A second stage output, higher amplification - for those very weak signals.

And you could have a couple downleads and switch between them, as wilspin suggests.


And how about splitting off the FM on a Third pre-amp output - also with a small bit of amplification ? A third downlead for your FM receiver / or receivers?

Most TV viewers aren't using their antenna(s) for FM

Yes. Agreed.

Most are *NOT* using their good outdoor TV antenna setups for FM.


But I wanna... Because:

What I find, personally, my opinion, in Kingston area especially, when I am in Kingston - is a *LACK* of choice and variety - in terms of simple Over the Air reception of broadcast GOOD NICE MUSIC.

ARGHH !

It seems one must have FM reception from a little furthur away from Kingston, in order to receive any *NICE* music / nice programs / nice talk show / or nice intelligent DJ's - and to avoid all the usual Kingston "noise" and BLAH BLAH BLAH of Kingston.

Exceptions / Some good alternatives in Kingston are:

The exceptions might be CBC Radio ONE and TWO - Kingston Local.

Also, maybe, CJAI 92.1 FM Amherst Island Public Radio, low power (250W?),
from Stella Ontario - on Amherst Island out in Lake Ontario. (need a better outdoor antenna, since it's low power)

One can also receive WJNY Classic FM, 90.9 (Public Radio from the U.S.) - from Watertown, NY, USA. But a better antenna, outdoors up high, certainly helps with that one - to bring in a strong and clear, noise free signal. [and I hear they've got a couple digital HD radio streams, one Oldies, and one Jazz I think ... so possibly a good antenna and digital HD Radio receiver might pull in some good music from Watertown NY on this station]


Otherwise ... I find ... all the Local Kingston radio is Bla bla bla, all the same noise and advertisements, and top 40 or pop or rock, or whacky Country (as opposed to *good country* music), with annoying DJ's or hosts. Non existant intelligent talk shows.

Otherwise, Kingston Local Radio: No good classical music. No good Jazz, no good Blues. Whacky Country Music with annoying DJ's and Advertisements.


Better Country Music, and less annoying DJ's, AD's and hosts comes from Smith's Falls, Y101.1 FM .

A few better Music Choices also come from Belleville Ontario.

And a wealth of better stuff from the U.S. - South of Kingston.


Just WAIT till I get the BIG COMBO YAGI w/FM and ROTOR up on the 40 ft tower in Kingston ...

Then it's Kingston local radio - BYE BYE !


I Love Kingston - BUT ...but the local, over the air radio choices - SUCK in Kingston. Sorry .

( compare to Ottawa ... no comparison. )


In Kingston, one really needs:

- stations from a little furthur away, with a good DX OTA antenna setup.
(ex. Belleville, Smith's Falls, and the U.S.of A. ! )

- or say music by digital cable (Galaxie, or radio stations from out of market, example - Cogeco gives a couple decent Toronto radio stations now ... and they could build and improve on these offerings. Montreal? Ottawa? Where are they COGECO ? Bring them on ... Lots of great stations in Montreal. Where's 102.5 FM from Ottawa? Where's 102.5 FM, CBC's French Espace Musique from Ottawa? From Ottawa COGECO ? Where'd'it go C.O.GEE CO ? You used to have it on analog FM. Did you just drop it or what? )

- or by satelite radio

- or by streaming on the internet

Co'me on Kingston ... Co'me on Cogeco.