We would have had DAB/DAB+ radio by now if it wasn't for all the border stations hogging up the UHF space.

Band III that is used for DAB / DAB+ elsewhere (approximately 174MHz to 230MHz range) is used here for DTV (digital TV-top VHF-HI), Amateur Radio (220MH band) and other uses already well established.

L-Band take-up in the U.S. will not occur do to established services that WILL NOT MOVE, by their nature of use. The Canadian use of L-Band is governed by a treaty between the U.S. and Canada specifying specific frequencies and powers to be used.

As stated, DAB takeup has been non-existent due to many reasons.

In the past, Toronto had 5 ensembles of L-Band stations broadcasting, but the last one went silent as of the end of November, this year.

When things were set up correctly, it sounded very good. I found the CBC feed of Radio 2 was a real treat compared to the FM feed from Toronto that suffered (and still suffers) from hideous amounts of processing making it next to un-listenable. CBC however, had their DAB licenses rescinded by request back in January of this year by the CRTC.

As to HD Radio, Mexico has approved testing it, but they're thinking outside the box and allowing HD radio to be tested also in an "all-digital" mode without analogue signal accompaniment. A very interesting mode that the radios with HD Radio capabilities will receive.

From a regulatory standpoint, Canada currently allows testing and use of DAB, DAB+, HD Radio and DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale).

With the current state of our, as well as most other economies I don't foresee any implementation of any digital radio system here in Canada in the foreseeable future, unfortunately.

Cameron

Thanks for that great synopsis.

Any likelihood that CBC-Toronto will say someday, "... we got some folks out there with HD receivers in cars and at home, why don't we give it a try..."?

Does DAB have subchannels to do tricks like this: at the moment, I'm between West Palm Beach (20 miles) and Miami (52 miles). A dipole wire antenna in our 2nd floor condo gets PBS in both places easily. One has music on HD1 and NPR/news on the other. The other, has the reverse. So my regular FM table radio gets both services and my Sony HD gets four clear voices, albeit duplicated.

In other words, the versatility of HD, including the all-digital that Cam mentioned, is a vote against DAB.
Ben

Ben, DAB and DAB+, as well as HD Radio (in all digital mode) are purely digital in nature, and very efficient from a power perspective.

It could be loosely said that both have some similarities.

Both broadcast multiple "streams" per channel, depending of course of the datarates of each "service" on each "multiplex".

HD Radio and DAB+ both use more efficient codecs, unlike DAB that uses mpeg2.

Like DAB, which has morphed into DAB+ with enhancements, it appears HD Radio is also seeing some enhancements that are in development and possibly at the point of being rolled out. Not sure on that timeline.

Just the operating frequencies are different.

However, it appears to me that wherever there's a revenue stream (no pun intended) to be had, that's where development usually takes place, and "free" has this nasty habit of not providing a great revenue stream. This can be seen in the current development (or lack thereof) of digital radio implementations and the malaise over the speed of DTV (digital TV) rollout and correct implementation.

Both of these parallel the need for highly specialized fields of expertise in each of the radio and TV fields, and to some extent, it's a very steep learning curve from both a technical and management level. Add to this the economy and the whole process gets bogged down.

Espace Musique (90.3MHz) CBC Toronto did in fact test HD Radio back in 2007. I'd have to dig up the link, but it is on the CBC website. It's a tad technical, but is there. What they didn't test was the all-digital mode of HD Radio. That would have been interesting.

Cameron

Again, thanks for very clear clarification.

I am mystified by some aspects of this discussion. First issue is to identify obstacles to implementation. No big trouble getting station engineers to understand and to favour new toys. Likewise the beancounters, if the economic case is self-evident.

BIG obstacle is getting the public to buy millions of receivers and toss out their old ones. Happened when FM band moved in late forties (perhaps just in the US, dunno). No trouble adding UHF TV stations. Or silently adding ibiquity HD.

So I hear lots of posting about the technical virtues and few about resistance from the user base. Can't lose sight of that problem when talking about trick systems.

I understand the benefits of HD Radio, its just it doesn't solve the problem of the lack of FM frequency in major markets and HD Radio doesn't work on L-Band.

It can if they extend the FM band down to 76MHz for HD Radio by discontinuing the use of TV channels 5 and 6 (which aren't working well for DTV anyway).

I think the whole Canadian DAB should be put to bed. HD Radio should be the format we should go with. The majority of Canadians live close to the US border. Some already can access AM & FM stations offering HD Radio. The HD Radio units are being added to more and more cars. There is some talk about it also being added to smart phones. Plus I've seen a basic Insignia HD Radio Boom box over on the US Best Buy site going for $80. Prices like that make adoption to HD Radio a lot easier. And the FM multicast is great.

As for the crowded FM band that was mentioned in markets like Toronto. HD Radio can free up space if the government allows it to.

The CBC would only need one FM channel to deliver

99.1 FM - CBC Radio 1
99.1- HD1 - CBC Radio 1
99.1- HD2 - CBC Radio 2
99.1- HD3 - CBC Radio 3

That would free up the CBC Radio 2 analog station.

The same can be done with SRC. That would free up another FM station.

And private broadcasters that have more than 1 analog FM station in a market can be told to free up one, while they move one to the HD2 or HD3 position of the one they keep.

HD Radio can free up FM space. And this is just in IBOC mode. If it went full digital, I'm sure the number of HD channels would be increased up to 6.
Who knows, we might one day have a CBC Radio 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 all on one FM station.

I for one have no interest in the DAB system. I have a HD Radio, and I enjoy the multicast coming from a nearby NPR station. Which by the way offers the BBC World Service on it's HD3. Would our CRTC rules even allow such a news service to be available on Canadian Radio? Unfiltered! Straight from the BBC. I doubt it. For that reason alone, I prefer we use the same system as the US in order that we have access radio sources with different points of view.

The lineup to broadcast at 77.5FM to nobody will indeed be short.

This ship's sailed.

The step after FM is internet delivery.

DAB and HD Radio were interesting interim solutions whose windows of opportunity to catch on was brief (and happened where properly implemented) but that window's closed. Not going to happen here.

Governments could better spend their time and money making sure access to internet cummunication is universal rather than trying to push unwanted technologies.

Internet Radio can't work in all cases. I use it at work sometimes, and when too many people are pulling at the same time, the signal cuts in and out. A royal pain.

Plus, for home use, people have download limits. And added costs when going over those caps. This means a added expense if all radio use was coming in that way for some people.

And using your smart phone to access internet radio is another data drain cost on your wallet.

Broadcast radio simply requires a one time purchase of a tuner.

Those cost and reliablity issues can and will work themselves out, perhaps with government intervention.

Audio streaming resource needs as a proportion of capacity are getting smaller every day.

Broadcast radio is in its final snapshot. What you see is what you get. It may last a long time still, but modifying it without demand is pointless. Already, in crowded markets, attempts at moving beyond mainstream formats is proving unsuccessful. And, forcing an existing station to an HD-2 subchannel is to immediately put it out of business.

The demand going forward beyond mainstream broadcast is for pureplay (ie: Pandora) services that can't be broadcast with HD/DAB, and for a large selection of niche formats - which aren't sustainable through a local, ad-supported model.

The interesting station to watch with respect to their current broadcasting status is WBEN, 930KHz from Buffalo, NY.

Their mainstay dial position has been 930KHz on the AM band.

They showed up on 107.7MHz FM as an HD2 stream from Buffalo.

Then, that station "flipped" and made WBEN the primary FM signal as well as the HD1 stream, and what was a classic rock station has moved to HD2.

Now, with WBEN on 930KHz AM, FM 107.7MHz (normal analogue) as well as a HD1 stream on that same frequency, it will be interesting to find out as time goes by which of the 3 broadcast methods the listeners gravitate to.

Cameron

About streaming via the internet / smartphone.

My take is it will create a massive void for those without internet or cellular service if this route becomes a primary means for broadcasters of radio stations.

With the current state of our cellular industry re: cost, and internet providers just barely dealing with current data carriage demands plus cost, I imagine that over time there could become a segment of the population that will become completely isolated with respect to current affairs if this route is taken.

I can't see any government here paying for this for many decades to come.

Until some "magic bullet" technology comes along, OTA broadcasting will continue for some time.

Cameron

Cam, are there any DAB broadcasts left> The last few times I tried I got nothing. Will take my radio to Toronto today and test it.

Dael, the L4 ensemble of stations from Toronto vanished around the end of November, and I've done a manual check of all L-band frequencies since almost daily and ziltch. This was also true when I visited Toronto during the Christmas holidays.

Please report if you get anything. It'd be appreciated. Thanks.

At this juncture, it appears as if DAB has finally bit the dust here in Canada.

However, it also appears HD Radio hasn't received any uptake either.

My last listening of DAB was to Jazz FM on the L4 ensemble, and it won hands-down against the FM feed, which suffers sibilance distortion on the left channel, during spoken announcements. The DAB feed was completely devoid of that effect, and that effect happens on all radios here.

Cameron


Cameron

snip
My last listening of DAB was to Jazz FM on the L4 ensemble, and it won hands-down against the FM feed, which suffers sibilance distortion on the left channel, during spoken announcements. The DAB feed was completely devoid of that effect, and that effect happens on all radios here.

Cameron


Cameron
Odd. Never noticed. What is the explanation?

Ben

Ben, I never asked the station itself about the problem.

While an announcer is speaking, you hear distortion on the "S" sounds in the left channel, on all radios here. I also heard it while in Toronto. The DAB feed didn't do this. It's not severe, but noticeable. This is with headphone listening.

Cameron

Left channel, eh? I assume you tried reversing the headphones, channels upstream, etc...... and other due-diligence testing?

Ben

All receivers used for both the FM and DAB tests used the headphones, and yes, the same headphones used on the DAB receiver.

Cameron

Hi Cam: Do you think it is worth getting an HD tuner? If so, what would you suggest? I don't want to break the bank. The least expensive one I have seen on the net is from Sangean. The Sony HD tuners have become pricey.

Vinyl Guy

From other posters here, it appears the Sony equipment that receives HD Radio and has a top notch sounding FM section has been discontinued. That probably explains the high(er) prices.

Can't say I've heard anything "bad" about the Sangan receiver(s). It all depends on how well you receive the Buffalo stations, as none in the area of the GTA have implemented HD Radio.

Side comment: There is a specific (in fact 2 if I remember correctly) threads for HD Radio, so don't be surprised if this and your post wander over to one of those threads, helped along by a moderator. :-)

Cameron

I'd say it depends what you're looking for.

If it's just more/better content, just get a Sirius/XM subscription. Their radio sound quality in-car isn't great, but the streaming for at home and work is very good.

I don't see much of an advantage of HD over Satellite.