Another thing I would consider trying is putting the 4228 at the very top and the Winegard towards the bottom, with the spacing as far apart between the two antennas. I noticed when I had first put up my system that the spacing between the XG91 and my VIP VHF I was getting interference. As I spaced them further apart I received a much better signal for channel 6 and 13.
Let us know,

Well, I think like ScaryBob said, height is ultimately my worst enemy on 13 and 6, but they're still very watchable after moving the CM4228HD to the top and moving the Winegard to the bottom. I would say they are no better or worse. I guess the hope is that one day I can get them onto the roof of the house (or the chimney) without killing myself -- the last time I tried... was a terrifying epic failure! The good news is that 69 is once again watchable (though both it and 20 -- the omnis -- have a ghost). Also, I'm already seeing signs of NBC from Detroit on my signal meter, which normally doesn't happen before 9pm (its 7:45pm now). I'm excited to see if this improves the tropo.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. The setup is better now, and I'll post some updated pix soon. Now, before I say cheers, I have some off-topic things to say. First, if you haven't been by the CBC/SRC DTV Transition Status (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=123571) thread, you all might want to have a look there now. As it stands, we are going to either loose our CBC repeater on 40 or it will continue on in analogue at the cut-over depending on what the CRTC tells the CBC. In particular, this is what the CBC said about London (http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=1138768&postcount=123). The hope is that if we make enough noise, we can avoid these terrible fates.

Also, how does one get a signature on these forums?

Cheers!

@Micah

How is cityTV? I am assuming you are not getting much from it.

(As the CM 7777 VHF input would reduce UHF signal (rf 31). Then the Notch filter will take it out on the other antenna.)

Editing Signature Click on "User Cp" you can find it in the menu bar.

As for CBC, I dont think we have much to worry about. If CBC does Shut down CBLN. An estimated 60ooo people would not be able to watch CBC broadcast. 10% is the standard number of Canadians that do not use cable.

The real issue is the smaller markets like in the Atlantic or Far North. WhiteHorse 22898+
Yellowknife 18700+

Read ya l8r,
Al

How is cityTV? I am assuming you are not getting much from it.

(As the CM 7777 VHF input would reduce UHF signal (rf 31). Then the Notch filter will take it out on the other antenna.)

I don't think the strength is affected by the equipment (unless I am misunderstanding something) -- its not a proper notch trap -- I have a channel 31 "combiner." The UVSJ splits the UHF from the winegard (pointing roughly at CityTV), and then the combiner takes 31 (coming from the UVSH) and joins it with the CM4228 (blocking CityTV from the CM4228 and accepting it from the Winegard). The effect should be that I get 31 from the winegard only.

Anyway, the reception is decent. I'm still fine tuning the setup, but I may end up going with the small yagi for just 31... we'll see.

Oh, So A single channel insert. That can be quite helpful <:

It should not be needed after CITY goes digital. But wait and see.

read ya l8r,
Al

Oh, So A single channel insert. That can be quite helpful <:

It should not be needed after CITY goes digital. But wait and see.

I know! Its driving me nuts that off of the back of the CM4228HD I have enough to get the digital signal, but for now I have to go through these hoops because the visual is unstable. Oh well -- wait and see indeed.

I get 31 very well on a reflector-less M4. It's probably the clearest channel due to ghosting on the Byron transmitters. The real problem channels are 10 (overloading,) 51 (severe ghosting) and 13, 29 (weak.) The extra gain and directionality of a CM 4228 would likely kill 31 but improve 51 and 29. However, the digital transition will change reception patterns so I'm taking a wait and see approach until then.

I get 31 very well on a reflector-less M4. It's probably the clearest channel due to ghosting on the Byron transmitters. The real problem channels are 10 (overloading,) 51 (severe ghosting) and 13, 29 (weak.) The extra gain and directionality of a CM 4228 would likely kill 31 but improve 51 and 29.

Hmm.... Good idea! I wonder if I can get the reflector off of my DB4 without ruining it. I have a notch trap for 10, I get 51 just fine, and 42 and 29 are not really there to begin with. Maybe getting rid of the reflector will accomplish what I want.

nice evening and morning for American DTV signals.
Cleveland's
3-1, 3-2 RF17
5-1 RF15
8-1 RF8
25-1, 25-2, 25-3, 25-4 RF26
43-1, 43-2 RF28
55-1 RF30
61-1 RF34
then towards Detroit
4-1, 4-2 RF45
7-1, 7-2 RF41
21-1 RF21
56-1, 56-2, 56-3 RF43
62-1 RF44
some Toledo
11-1. 11-2 RF11
30-1, 30-2, 30-3 RF29
happy viewing

@Panamark
Nice formatting.

@DTV,
My non pro option. So long as there One Strong image (one main ghost). The DTV so come in clear. However, On some nights if you are not pointed towards transmittor. You may get some pixelazion (Blocking). Now assuming that all Channels in London go Digital. With basic outdoor equipment a user should be able to receive 10/11 channels (Plus sub channels). But with Good/proper equipment 12 channels. And with Tropo more. <:

Read ya l8r,
Al

Interestingly enough, after having WQLN continuously clobbered by Akron, I've finally gotten to see the offending channel, 49.* WEAO. It's been, at times, able to kill WQLN but never strong enough to be seen until today. It remapped WQLN on the tv.

I wonder what bonehead assigned RF50's so close to each other.:confused:

indeed the RF50 assignment is troublesome.
When I had my DB8 up I would constantly have that issue you speak about.
Now with the XG91 up, it is more directional and tends to relieve this issue well.
another channel that has the same issue is RF26 with WVIZ and the Jametown TCT channel.

ok, so I woke up this morning and before I left for work I decided to watch some news and turned the tv on. Low and behold I was getting no picture on channel 10 CFPL, it was just snow. I flipped over to see if the Cleveland's were coming in and all were booming (around 5:30).
I suspect that it was off the air as I usually see just the colour bar's in the wee early mornings on channel 10.
I started a digital only scan and as I suspected it stopped for a long time on RF10. I tried for 15 mins but had no success. I though I was gonna get er but no avail.
Man that was exciting stuff.
M.I.A. Cleveland's WOIO 19-1 RF10, one day I will get you

I noticed channel 10 off the air too. I thought is was strange.

WOIO? I remember that one from away back. Shaker Heights/Cleveland. Someone will get it here Mark.

Myself? I've wanted to see Hamilton's 11 in digital but figured it for impossible with TVO here on RF18. Well, with the CN Tower whipping in here tonight, I thought I'd try a little adjustment and shazam. There it is. It's locking in once in a while as I'm typing this but there seems to be an epic battle going on. I've got a 90 signal strength and the SN has to be above 18! to get any pic at all. It's the Bourne Identity. The retro logo is cool.

Side Note: Woo Hoo! I'm not a 'rookie' anymore.:p

M.I.A. Cleveland's WOIO 19-1 RF10, one day I will get youMaybe it's them that now makes this station harder to get than ever... I think i know now why this station is noticeable weaker here than about 1-2 weeks ago. Used to be around 4 bars and now its like 1-2 with drop outs all over the place. Nothing changed at all in my setup.

WOIO had permission to go super directional to the north way more than they have been since digital started. They had been sending about a quarter of their total power across lake Erie (about 1.2kw indicated in TVFool) with the old setup. Now with the new one its even less. I am getting a pitiful 0.9kw with the new WOIO antenna modifications and nulls. 900 watts VHF sure blows.

Was in London this weekend- near Stronach Park.

I kept looking for OTA gear, but nary did I see- maybe too far north. Except for Hotel 7 (?) on Wellington which had a parabolic and a few others ganged. Brantford had much more as we travelled back home.

Anyways, in the hotel we stayed at- lots of local US channels in analog from different cities- mostly Detroit, a couple Clevelands with crazy Channel 19 that had "Action News"- reminded me of U-tube clips; and Erie PBS.

I guess these US channels are all via BDU since getting them OTA would take monstrous set-ups. I could see getting Erie, but to get Detroit 24/7 seems impossible from London.

Anyways, we had a nice visit- cheers!

I kept looking for OTA gear, but nary did I see- maybe too far north. Except for Hotel 7 (?) on Wellington which had a parabolic and a few others ganged. Brantford had much more as we travelled back home.

I drive by that rig all the time and think to myself "man, that must have been a sweet setup when they had it hooked up." For those that don't know this location, here is the street view (http://maps.google.com/maps?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&oe=utf-8&ie=UTF8&q=hotel+7&fb=1&ei=HP6DTM_XHIGB8gaas5mjAg&ved=0CDcQtgMwAA&sll=42.946342,-81.226985&sspn=0.001614,0.001797&split=1&rq=1&ev=zi&radius=0.05&hq=hotel+7&hnear=&ll=42.948884,-81.227975&spn=0.025821,0.028753&z=15&layer=c&cbll=42.949032,-81.228031&panoid=s6cNMnx86016bb-kYzgazw&cbp=12,266.41,,1,-1.38).

It should not be needed after CITY goes digital. But wait and see.


Just curious, once Citytv-2 (NTSC channel 31 with ERP 929kW from Woodstock) converts to digital (DTV 31 with ERP 125kW), will Londoners still be able to pickup Citytv with their existing OTA gear with a much lower ERP?

I read somewhere a while back that DTV OTA broadcasting requires less ERP than analog OTA broadcasting, but I noticed that most channels, including Citytv-2, will have a much lower ERP once the OTA transmitter is converted to DTV. Here are a few examples:

.. CHCH-tv-2 (London repeater) NTSC 51 with ERP 1300kW > DTV 24 with ERP 850kW

.. CIII-tv (Paris) NTSC 6 with ERP 100kW > DTV 6 with ERP 4kW

.. CKCO-tv-1 (Kitchener) NTSC 13 with ERP 325kW > DTV 13 with ERP 12kW

and for those outside the City of London who rely on the London repeaters:

.. CFPL-tv (London) NTSC 10 with ERP 325kW > DTV 10 with ERP 10.1kW

.. CFMT-1-tv (London) NTSC 69 with ERP 1127kW > DTV 48 with ERP 500kW

Anyways, in the hotel we stayed at- lots of local US channels in analog from different cities- mostly Detroit, a couple Clevelands with crazy Channel 19 that had "Action News"- reminded me of U-tube clips; and Erie PBS.

I guess these US channels are all via BDU since getting them OTA would take monstrous set-ups. I could see getting Erie, but to get Detroit 24/7 seems impossible from London.

You were treated to the local Rogers cable lineup. Here in London we get WQLN (PBS) Erie, the Big 4 affiliates from Detroit, and WUAB Cleveland, which airs 19 Action News at 10 from its sister station WOIO.

London has never, ever gotten reliable 24/7 signals from Detroit, Cleveland, or Erie. In the analog days you could most likely get them sometimes, but I somehow doubt the signal quality was any better than Grade C. I never saw this for myself though.

Just curious, once Citytv-2 (NTSC channel 31 with ERP 929kW from Woodstock) converts to digital (DTV 31 with ERP 125kW), will Londoners still be able to pickup Citytv with their existing OTA gear with a much lower ERP?

Apparently stations can use 1/10th the power of analog to get the same coverage with digital. From my experience this seems very probable.

For example, I can easily pick up CBC from Toronto (56 miles away) here in Kitchener. It broadcasts with 38KW on RF 20. Another strong station I can pick up even at ground level is CHCH in Hamilton (39.6 miles away) on RF 18 and they are broadcasting at 60KW.

I have the advantage of being on the 15th floor and can pick up Global, Sun, and City TV in digital from Toronto and these stations are only transmitting at 3KW.

-------

However some tweaking might or might not be needed. When the US did their switch over there were cases of stations needing to either change channels or power levels to duplicate their previous coverage.

will Londoners still be able to pickup Citytv with their existing OTA gear with a much lower ERP?
A 50% reduction in power is not a cause for concern so CITY should be no problem. The big question marks for London residents are CKCO 13 and CIII 6. There have been numerous instances of lost reception in the US due to drastic power reductions for VHF channels. CIII staying on 6 is idiotic. For one, VHF-LO channels are getting drastic power cuts and it's possible that these frequencies may be reallocated for non-TV use. VHF-LO is also very susceptible to interference from distant stations in certain weather conditions. I doubt Global really cares though. As long as they get their grade B contour simsubs and BDU fees they are happy. They actually make more money if they are not receivable OTA since that means they get more fees from BDU subscribers in London. The power reduction for CFPL 10 is not a concern for Londoners but may be in outlying areas. They will retain the tall tower so it won't be as bad as 6 and 13 which are 1 or 2 edge in many parts of London.