Hi, I just have a york TM9V furnace installed, it works well.
But after I read the installation manual, I have found some (serious) issues.

1. intake installed too low.
http://img2.pict.com/d0/37/cf/1694100/0/800/pic1.jpg

however, the pipe is already close to the ceiling of the basement. so what can be done

2. too close to the gas meter
http://img2.pict.com/0e/e0/ad/1694121/0/800/pic3.jpg

3. too close to the gas meter regulator vent
http://img2.pict.com/d3/e0/0e/1694113/0/800/pic2.jpg


Also, it is controlled by a single stage thermostat(the cable only has 4 wires). if I want to re-wire the thermostat cable (add a new 6-wire cable), do I have to reconnect the central humidifier installed on the intake plenum? I am not sure how the humidifier is connected.

Thanks for any advice.

4. The exhaust and intake are also too close together. I can't remember the spec, but it looks too close. Whoever did this should not be allowed to work again.

I believe that the pipe is allowed to go "up" on the outside of the house (like a gooseneck) to preclude the snow problem, however, that may depend on the length of the pipe on the inside of the home as there are restrictions on overall pipe length/vertical distance if I recall correctly.

The furnace experts on this forum should be along shortly to help you out.

P.S. Thanks for the photos with the tape measure. Very useful.

Definitely some code issues there, I don't have the updated code book handy but the vent is a little low at the very least, also, there should be a minimum 12" separation between the vent intake and exhaust, otherwise you'll get recirculation of the exhaust and frost build up on the intake on extremely cold mornings.

What area are you in? You need to call the company and point out that there are obvious code infractions with the install and if they don't come and deal with them immediately, you'll be calling TSSA if you're in Ontario to come and have a look at the quality of their work. All Ontario contractors are required to be licensed through the TSSA. Not sure about other provinces but they'll have something equivalent.

Edit.. just looked at pics again and noticed the Consumers Gas tag on the meter, assuming you're in Ont. then. Threaten with the TSSA, also, I can't tell if the venting is ULC 636 rated. Take a look inside and see if you see the ULC636 rating stamped on the venting, if not then they didn't use the correct certified venting either. A big no no.

minimum 12" separation between the vent intake and exhaust, otherwise you'll get recirculation of the exhaust and frost build up on the intake on extremely cold mornings.Isn't the other issue the fact that the exhaust no longer contains as much oxygen, therefore the combustion air would be diluted and perhaps cause combustion issues?

Also, on my HE furnace the combustion air is not a "sealed lead" to the combustion process, so CO, etc could get into the home, although unlikely due to the "draw" by the combustion process itself.

Also, it is controlled by a single stage thermostat(the cable only has 4 wires). if I want to re-wire the thermostat cable (add a new 6-wire cable), do I have to reconnect the central humidifier installed on the intake plenum? I am not sure how the humidifier is connected.

The humidifier should be connected to separate terminals on the circuit board.

If you closed up the B vent, a humidifier shouldn't be required too much.

It's kind of pathetic when the installers are too lazy to read the manual. When you call the company back, ask them to verify the gas pressure and dip switch settings.

I would be very concerned about the gas meter proximity as well. The gas company could demand it be fixed if they notice the infraction.

there should be a minimum 12" separation between the vent intake and exhaust, otherwise you'll get recirculation of the exhaust and frost build up on the intake on extremely cold mornings.
That means ours is incorrect as well. Too close and too low. I keep it clear of snow in Winter but it can get blocked after a heavy snow. I've also seen frost buildup on the intake. The intake and exhaust pipes are only about the same distance apart as in the above pic but the straight pipe is much shorter (and the intake and exhaust much closer.) Unfortunately, we can't threaten anyone because the installer is nowhere to be found. (Company went out of business.)

What is the best way to fix this without calling in an installer? The pipes cannot be extended out since they are in a driveway. They cannot be raised much either due to the basement ceiling level. The wall is stone so it is not easy to make a new hole either. Can the pipes be rerouted and extended up or along the wall?

do I have to reconnect the central humidifier installed on the intake plenum? I am not sure how the humidifier is connected.
I'm not a big fan of plenum humidistats but they seem to do the job. Some thermostats have built in humidistats. It might be possible to use one of those but wiring can be tricky. A separate, wall mounted humidistat may be a better idea for DIY. The old thermostat wiring and location could be used. The new thermostat could be mounted nearby.

First Call YORK. Let them know what that flyby nite did. And who knows york may step up and send out a different company to fix the install. They have no obligtion to do this but you wont know till you try...

If not grab your install manual there are instructions on how to make a snorkle extenstion to get you above antisipated snow levels. Basically you will snorkle both intake and exhoust, from the looks of it you can probably correct the snow height and clearances to the meter and regulator out let with a properly built snorkle. And even get the proper distance between the in and out pipes. It may not look pretty but its do able. And this can all be done from the exterior of the home..

worste case is you pay a reall hvac company to come out and fix this, i would expect a flat 1hr rate plus materials.

Thanks a lot for all replies. As I was limited to 3 pictures in my first post.

So here are more pictures:

4. Open stand pipe on the condensate drain is too short
http://img2.pict.com/83/f8/4a/1694131/0/pic6.jpg


5. 12” Minimum separation between bottom of combustion air intake and bottom of vent; but installed too close to each other.
http://img2.pict.com/e4/15/b4/1694175/0/800/pic7.jpg



6. water inside exhaust vent
http://img2.pict.com/43/96/18/1694128/0/800/pic5.jpg

This is the vent pipe used, it has "system 636 (R)" on it:
http://img2.pict.com/28/7f/fd/1696308/0/800/ventpipe.jpg

This is the requirement on the vent & intake from manual:
http://img2.pict.com/dd/ad/89/1696305/0/req1.jpg

This is the requirement on the condensate drain:
http://img2.pict.com/3b/b8/ab/1696307/0/req2.jpg

The humidifier should be connected to separate terminals on the circuit board.

If you closed up the B vent, a humidifier shouldn't be required too much.

It's kind of pathetic when the installers are too lazy to read the manual. When you call the company back, ask them to verify the gas pressure and dip switch settings.
Hi, what is a "B Vent"?
I think this furnace has jump switches, not dip switches, but I am sure the installers did not change any factory setting.

Figure 31 in post 9 shows a "gooseneck" or "snorkel" on the right side of the home, which would allow for the appropriate separation - a pretty easy fix for that portion of the issues (provided it meets any code requirements for vertical and horizontal run limits). For example, when I renovated in 1990, I wanted the vent to go out the other side of the home, but it couldn't because the pipe would have been too long. If I recall, there was also a vertical limit. I believe this restriction is in place because the power vent blower (or whatever it's called) can only overcome so much "loss" in the line.

Figure 31 in post 9 shows a "gooseneck" or "snorkel" on the right side of the home, which would allow for the appropriate separation - a pretty easy fix for that portion of the issues (provided it meets any code requirements for vertical and horizontal run limits)
Yes, there is a "Maximum Equivalent Pipe Length" which is 65(19.8m) feet for my model so I think they have a lot of room to play (currently installed less than 6m i think).

I am not sure if air flow will be affected if the pipe is re-routed so the intake is 1M(I think 1M is required as the snow could be 60cm high) above the ground.

fyi, 90elbows are equal to 5ft linier pipe and 45elbows are 2.5ft equivelent.. for 2" pipe. consider ths whn your measuring your instals vent lenght.

OK, Scarybob, if you don't have the 12" separation, it's fairly easy to make a goose neck and create the separation as shown in a few of the other posters diagrams. If you're unsure of possible issues with what that will do to your vent lengths, don't glue the elbows and let the furnace run for a few weeks, if you don't have any issues then you can glue it if you like. Although, anytime I used to do an outdoor repair to the vent terminations, I'd leave them unglued to facilitate clearing the vents in the future. Also, you could probably use regular PVC pipe if you can't source ULC636 rated pipe, it's just a foot or so of pipe outdoors so you don't need to worry.

CTU007.. The moisture on the interior of the exhaust vent is normal. Your furnace is so efficient now that the flue gas temperature drops to below the point where moisture condenses out of the gas. The important thing is that the exhaust venting has a slight slope back to the furnace to allow that moisture to drain back into the drainage system built into the furnace. As for the stand pipe, although technically not to the installers spec. it's not really an issue that's going to affect the operation.

57.. you're correct about the recirculation, but as for combustion problems, I am not sure what percentage of O2 gets used in the combustion process but I do believe that the venting has a certain amount of excess air suply built into the air requirements of the supply. So I do believe that you'd almost have to recircuate a large percentage of the exhaust before you'd have O2 supply issues.

636 pipe,primer and glues are all available at home depot if needed.

A technician came tonight, he admitted that the intake is too close to the ground, and he said he will call the sub-contractor(installer) to add elbows and pipes so they will be 2 feet above ground. I argued 2 feet is not enough so he said I can discuss with the installer then.
He did not think the gas meter is a problem, however. And he said the vent pipes are about 3 feet away from the gas meter vent so this is ok. Can you guys comment on this? If they make the vent higher, would it be ok?
He also said the intake and exhaust should be both horizontally and vertically 12" apart, but mine is horizontally close to each other.
He also set the high heat delay jumper to 10 minutes(installed left it as off -- the factory default).

So the only thing that will happen is to make the intake and exhaust pipe higher from the ground. Where can I find the exact requirement on distance from gas meter?

Thanks.

Thanks for the reply wgauci. I checked out the furnace manual and the vent pipes again. It's even worse than I thought. The pipes are only about 2" apart. The intake and exhaust openings themselves are only about 6" apart (2" plus the 90.) The exhaust is too short to attach a snorkel, since extends only about about 1"-2" out the wall and is covered with caulking. Not sure if that is too short to meet code. The intake is only 10" off the ground (and is sometimes buried by snow in Winter.) Again, the pipe is too short to attach a snorkel once the existing 90 is cut off.

The manual says to buy a snorkel kit but it looks easy to assemble from standard parts. Am I looking replacing the entire vent piping here? It's only about 15' in length and I have enough experience with PVC to DIY. (My work is certainly better than the guy who did this.) The install was done before the new code requirements so the pipe is probably not up to new code either. Length and pipe size are both well within spec so that is not an issue. It might not be a bad idea anyway since I have found leaks and poorly fitted/glued joints inside as well.

If you're up to the task, then it wouldn't hurt to replace the entire venting. Just to be clear though, the pipes can come out of the wall close together, it's just when it comes out that you want to create the 12" separation with the goose neck riser. If I'm reading your signature correctly referencing the 'armpit' I am assuming you're in the Windsor area. I am not sure if the sell ULC636 in the DIY stores, but if not, go to LK Metal, they're on of the only trade house's that sell to the general public. Also, if you can't get all of the old pipe off of the furnace, some installers glue all the fittings to the furnace, cut them off close to the unit and mention to the counter guy that you're connecting to existing PVC they'll give you a bottle of transition glue. Good luck.

3 feet is the requirement from a meter vent. You are basically preventing your furnace from taking in any vented gas that might occur. Chances are slim of that occurring but the 3 feet is the minimum by code allowed.

You should be ok with the new snorkle. Glad they are fixing it up for you :) and good looking out for yourself. Most people just trust the installer and don't even bother to read the manuals for the furnace.

I got a question for the experts. I just had installed yesterday a high efficiency furnace and the guy ran the pipe out the wall close to my TV antenna tower. When it’s running some of the steam is coming in contact with my tower. I’m just wondering if the steam is corrosive in any way? The tower is galvanised steal. I asked the guy if it was ok to have the steam hitting the tower and he said it was fine… it’s just water he said. Also it's a big 3 inch pipe... and I'm worried a bird is going to nest in there next spring.. as we had birds nesting before in the dryer, bathroom, and kitchen vents,,, yes there are lots of birds around here. So should I cover the end of the pipe with chicken wire? and if so the "Is it corrosive" comes into question again.