Roger, does your contact at Rogers know if City/Omni1/Omni2 will use virtual channel mapping? Right now in Toronto, CITY does, the omnis don't.

I foresee issues if CJMT/Omni2 doesn't use virtual channel mapping as 51.1 is already being used by WPXJ in our area. :o


BTW, here are the DTV websites:

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/static/114440
http://www.omnitv.ca/ontario/info/dtv_switchover.shtml

El Gran Chico, I sent an e-mail, but he is on vacation. Well let you know when I hear anything.

I heard back from him and apparently the virtual channel number will be the same as the physical channel number for all three stations post transition. I alerted him to the problem with WPXJ and he said he will look further into it (I don't think they quite understood the situation the first time around).

Do you know of any specific tuners (preferably one currently available) that have troubles with two RF channels sharing the same virtual channel?

The problem would be WPXJ-DT using a virtual channel number of 51 while CITY-DT is transmitting on 51 and not using a virtual channel number.

This should not be a problem. Tuners can have multiple channels of the same number with different call letters. So you will have 51-1 twice no?

It is true that some (many?) tuners can handle this situation but people have reported on this forum that some cannot. It would be helpful to give Rogers an example of one that can't.

All my tuners will show up with duplicates of the same numbers.

It is true that some (many?) tuners can handle this situation but people have reported on this forum that some cannot. It would be helpful to give Rogers an example of one that can't.
I remember when Global starting testing back in April 2008, they set the virtual channel to 2.1 and I remember some outrage from DHCers that it took out WGRZ for them. I'll see if I can locate some old posts.

Roger1818

The tuner in my Sony TV, a KDL Bravia model, will definitely have problems. It first tries to use the virtual channel, and falls back to the RF number if the virtual channel is taken. If both are already in use, the channel cannot be scanned or directly tuned.

For instance, last week when tropo was strong I detected a signal on RF 17 and ran the "Add Digital Channels" scan. The Sony found WSYR 9.2 but did not find 9.1, apparently because CFTO was using 9.1 and WNED was using 17.1, 17.2 and 17.3. A total re-scan allowed WSYR virtual channels 9.1 and 9.2, and CFTO scanned in as 40.4

So, if WPXJ ION (RF 23) is receivable when a full scan is run, it will take virtual channels 51.1/2/3 for itself, leaving CJMT (RF 51) not found. The only workaround would be to scan while ION is not being received, allowing CJMT to take 51.1 for itself. A subsequent scan will find ION as 23.3/4/5, which luckily leaves 23.1 open for WNLO (RF 32).

The virtual/RF numbering scheme is confusing, but it works. For stations to ignore their channel designations, (they are and will continue to advertise themselves as channels 47, 57 and 69) seems a willful attempt to confuse consumers even further.

Actually, they advertise themselves as cable 4, 14, and 7.
Even in Ottawa, where the cable channels are 16, 14, and 15.

Oddly I got WSYR the other day too. On My Sharp Aquos, I now have two 9.1s and a 9.2. If I click 9.1, it comes up CFTO presumably because it was there first. Extending this to when Omni goes up on 51.1, I won't be able to tune it directly because WPXJ will be on there first.

On my DTVpal DVR, It added WYSR as 70-1 as 9-1 was already taken (I guess the firmware starts putting channels above 69 to preserve uniqueness) and the subchannel as 9-2.

So we know different devices are going to handle this case differently. Not sure this is going to be easy to explain to those less technical. :(

"Actually, they advertise themselves as cable 4, 14, and 7.
Even in Ottawa, where the cable channels are 16, 14, and 15."

You are correct, sir. Watching the U.S. stations, which constantly remind you of their channel number, led me to believe I was still seeing the same from Canadian stations. A quick look shows most don't even mention their cable channel assignment, even the channels which tend to be the same for OTA and Cable, like 9 or 11. One reason might be the repeater channels most GTA stations have. Much rarer in the States, I believe.

Weren't television stations obligated at one point to periodically broadcast their channel/frequency info, much like radio stations?

Check when the station shut down for the night or starts operations in the morning. I believe they will mention the frequency then.

Read ya l8r,
Al

Even without tuner conflict problems, it's still a bad idea to be one of two 51-1's in this market. For a broadcaster to knowingly allow their product to be potentially confused with a competitor's product, by using the same channel entry, is a mistake.

By the way, there is no regulations between the US and Canada on the use of virtual channels. Usualy, virtual channels reflects the current RF allocation or the previous analog one of a DTV station. This was created early in the design of the ATSC system at the request of the broadcasters because they wanted to keep their branding, Like WCAX in Vermont that as been ID itself as ''Vermont Own, Channel 3'' for the last 50 years.

In the example given earlier of WPXJ-DT and CITY-DT, the US station uses their former channel ID and CITY uses their new channel allocation. There is nothing anyone can do for this. Both stations are somehow sharing the same market, but this assumption is also false since they are in two different countries.

The only thing that IC and the FCC regulates between the two countries is the channel allotment for each stations according to the determined protocols agreed between them. But I agree with you that someone should have light up on this problem.

Nice evening. :cool:

My concern is about how might Windows Media Centre be able to handle the double-channels when it comes to recording and programming guide.

There is nothing anyone can do for this.

We can ask them nicely to be good corporate citizens and to serve the interests of their OTA viewership.

It would be nice if post transistion, CITY went with 57-1. They've been 57 for so long, most people don't remember them being anything else (79).

While they're at it, 47 has a long history in T.O. "You're watching channel 47, cable 4"

69 doesn't really have an ID, as by the time it came along Rogers had already rebranded to OMNI, and treated the stations as though they were cable specialty channels with no channel number. Why not use 47-1 for OMNI-1, and 47-2 for OMNI-2?

I'm not saying subchannels, separate transmitters, with PSIP to make them appear as subchannels.

This is not possible due to regulations. The main channel on any frequency allocation must be ID with it's own call lettrers and their virtual channel is always XX-1 (IE: 47-1):cool:

This is not possible due to regulations. The main channel on any frequency allocation must be ID with it's own call lettrers and their virtual channel is always XX-1 (IE: 47-1):cool:
RFMAN, do you have a link to these regulations in Canada?
I have been told by Industry Canada that, notwithstanding the fact that they have "adopted" ATSC-65/C, the only part of the PSIP data that they regulate is the TSID.