At the particular point in time when I was aiming the antenna, I was able to watch fox in the attic without any cable run. However relocating back to the basement at the end of the run I wasn't able to pick up Fox.

pnear that's good that you were able to get 17db of signal vs 8db now to get it down to your basement.

So the problem lies between the cable and preamp going down ? I know but maybe you can check the cable connectors that no braided wire is touching the copper center of the rg6.

If your cable run is no more than 50' you should not need a preamp.

What do you mean where does the coax goes there should be a bauln in the box that connects to the antenna its normally in the center like your existing one.

What happened when you tired to use the two stacked 4221 but remove the preamp and power supply and then test the signal in the basement.

If you find that once you add the preamp Fox drops then slighty move one antenna and see if that makes a difference or because you have good gain try and add a few splitters. I found that with a single 4228 and the Winegard AP4700 had to add 12db plus a 3db loss for a splitter for Fox to work in Burlington.

What are you using for a splitter does it allow dc pass through. If not I came across that it affects the signal.

pnear that's good that you were able to get 17db of signal vs 8db now to get it down to your basement.
I never tested in the attic before, but to be honest 8db at 25% is lower than I've ever seen with one antenna. I almost wonder if there was something else interfering, like a large man sitting beside the antenna maybe, that was causing odd results. But yes, two versus one seems much better on the meter. Now to translate that into reception results...

So the problem lies between the cable and preamp going down ? I know but maybe you can check the cable connectors that no braided wire is touching the copper center of the rg6.
I plan to check all of the ends today and maybe replace any important ones.


If your cable run is no more than 50' you should not need a preamp.
It's about 50 feet from the attic to the basement, plus another 50ish then to the TV. I can try testing it at the end of the first 50 though to see how that does. Question, will unplugging the power injector be enough to test without a preamp or should I really disconnect it in the attic to get a reasonable test?

What do you mean where does the coax goes there should be a bauln in the box that connects to the antenna its normally in the center like your existing one.
I mean once the coax is connected to the balun, where do I run the coax. I tried running it down the center of the antenna but that seemed to make reception much worse. Right now it's just kind of dangling in front of the antenna but playing with its location seemed to affect the signal so I thought I'd ask about best practice here.

What happened when you tired to use the two stacked 4221 but remove the preamp and power supply and then test the signal in the basement.
I have yet to test that scenario.

What are you using for a splitter does it allow dc pass through. If not I came across that it affects the signal.
It's an RMS digitap, doesn't say anything about dc on the label.

pnear you need to remove both the preamp at the antenna and power supply from the system.

If you remove just the power supply you wont get any signal.

From there go right into the basement and check the signal at the first 50' and if your reception is good then you need a splitter that can pass dc.

I usually push the balun through the antenna towards the back of the antenna and then tie wrap the rg6 cable on the pole behind the antenna.

That is weird I never noticed any signal inteference from the balun being in front and moving the cable around.

I wonder if your cable/connection is bad where the antenna is connected causing interference?

I had this huge lovely post that somehow got lost, sigh...

Here's the short version: I tested every point in the basement from the power injector to the receivers. On WUTV I got 22-23 db and 83-85% reception at every point right up to the dual splitter. Then got 21db and 80% behind the splitter. Finally the PCI tuner (as opposed to the USB one I had been using to test) only gets 19db and 71% reception.

Next stop is the attic. Curious that reception is so much better this morning, maybe WUTV was having issues last night or some funky DXing is happening.

I had this huge lovely post that somehow got lost, sigh...I don't see anything like that in your previous posts - was it an editing error or some sort of system barf?

I think it was my bad... I probably had the post open and navigated to some other page.

Anyways, another brief update. I had 10 minutes between conference calls so I popped up into the attic again. On the same tuner I was getting closer to 60% reception and 17db before the preamp. Re-worked the wires to run behind the antenna and reception improved somewhat.

Based on the fact that my results at the antenna were worse than in the basement I left the preamp connected for now. I have to be out for the rest of the afternoon, so didn't want to leave it out of service.

More updates tonight no doubt.

I think it was my bad... I probably had the post open and navigated to some other page.I got into the habit of opening another tab in Firefox to compose or edit posts while the original tab stays on the thread. :) If I have to go to another site at the same time, I open another tab.

OK, back to OTA results.

Fox is at 7 bars on my Samsung tonight, it's never gone beyond 4 with a single antenna and usually hangs out in the 2-bar range. I'm a happy dude, but rather than re-run all the signal strengths I think I'm going to fire up some King Kong on the new big-screen. ;-)

But my usual nighttime dip didn't happen tonight and it looks like (knock on wood) the dual antennas served their purpose. I'll need to go a solid week though before declaring victory.

Thanks all!

Receiving reflected signals and trying to tune your antenna for stable reception is usually much harder than direct line of sight.

While I am able to get all of the T.O. and Buffalo channels almost all of the time, it does take some fiddling with the antenna. There is one spot that I can point to where I often get all the channels at the same time, but WUTV and WGRZ do have a tendency to disappear, and CBLT usually doesn't come in because of multipath (my receiver shows constant 49% signal strength). But right now, as I'm writing this, I'm getting every channel.

I don't like having to run out onto the balcony at midnight to fiddle with the antenna. If I got a fancier antenna like a CM 4221 (which is the biggest ant. that I could reasonable put on my balcony), am I more likely to pull in all the stations consistently without having to adjust the antenna? Or am I out of luck because of the reflected signal, and will just have to learn to live with it?

what if you combined your Silver Sensor with a 4221, or maybe even another Silver Sensor. That way you could aim one at Buffalo, one at Toronto, and then hope that all the signals are strong enough to block out reduction from the other antenna.

Or, what would work for certain is getting two antennas, and then use a switch box at your TV, which isn't ideal, but much less of an inconvenience than fiddling with your antenna to get channels.

I thought I would post my results for an indoor antenna. I'm in North West Oakville and I purchased an RCA amplified antenna(RCA CANT501). I can only get WIVB DT 23-1, CBC DT 5-1, CTV DT. I can also get the radar channel and WNLO. I bought this so I could follow the NY state NFL teams. I have Cogeco HD but I am subjected to the Lions, Bengalsm, Browns, etc.

...and then use a switch box at your TV, which isn't ideal, but much less of an inconvenience than fiddling with your antenna to get channels.Did this (switch box w/ two antennas), and it works very nicely. I still have problems picking up WGRZ consistently (particularly early evening), but I have no problem getting all other stations now without adjusting either antenna.

It did take me a while to set up both antennas to achieve this, but it was worth it. Getting up every once in a while to push a button on a switch box is much nicer than having to constantly go out on the balcony to play with the antenna.

timmy1,
How often do you have touble picking up WGRZ in early evening? does it drop off completely or does it bounce around? I am experiencing signal bouncing from 0 to 10, 0, 10 etc. evenings between 9PM ~ 11PM in Markham for WGRZ using CM4221 with sir-t451 tuner. haven't had the tv on in the morning/afternoon to see if it's consistent throughout the day however.

How close are your antennas to each other? are they both sliver sensors or did you mix brands?

My setup is now a 4221 on my balcony, and the HDTVi on a window ledge indoors. The antennas are not wired together -- they go separately into a switch box which I use to select between them. I tried to put them together through a splitter but the results were extremely erratic. So I set up the 4221 to get as many stations as possible, and the Terk is there to grab the rest.

So far today, the 4221 is getting everything except WNED (which it never picks up from its current position). But depending on weather, time of day, and god knows what else, it will often drop WNLO, WGRZ, and WKBW. WTUV, WIVB, and the canadian stations are always there. With the Terk, I've set it up inside to consistently pull in WNLO, WNED, and WKBW. It brings in WGRZ inconsistently.

I would say that about half the time I have trouble getting WGRZ between about 6-9 pm. It will sometimes drop out at other times of day though. Today it's been coming in strong (75%) all day. When I'm having problems with WGRZ, it usually bounces around between 0 and 20% on the 4221. With the Terk, I'll get a steady 49%, which I've been told means my tuner (Digital Stream HD3150Plus) is having trouble with multipath.

I ordered a cm4221 from sensuz and I recieved it 3 days later.Nice antenna, I am curently recieving all the American networks and most of the available Canadian networks.I still can,t get CTV though.I am in the Third line and Speers rd area. My antenna is mounted above my chimney.

Well, my situation is that while I can more or less receive the Buffalo channels without fade with the exception of Channel 29-1 and 29-2, the only Toronto channel I am receiving is 5-1, CBC., and that is with the CM4221 just sitting on a chair next to my iMac. I have been able to receive all of the Buffalo channels but then 5-1 CBC fades, so it is obvious that I will also need a separate CM4221 just for the Toronto channels.

Looks like the weather is going to prevent me from installing a mast for both antennae, so next week I am going to try the CM4221 in the attic and hope that it will improve my reception, at least for over the winter.

Why is it that everyone seems to have problems receiving CTV ? Is it because they transmit OTA from their Scarborough site and don't use the CN Tower at all ? If that is so, is it possible for the CM4221's beam to cover both sites from SE Oakville, or is the angle too wide ?

Based on my convsersations with them, they are indeed broadcasting from the CN tower.

so next week I am going to try the CM4221 in the attic

This should help a lot. I live on the Hamilton Mountain and I could get CBLT-DT and CBLFT-DT with just a silver sensor antenna and a weak signal (no lock) on CFTO-DT and CJMT-DT. I just purchased a Channel Master 4221 and pre-amp so this should improve reception for both Buffalo and Toronto.

Based on my convsersations with them, they are indeed broadcasting from the CN tower.

The reason I asked was because message #223 mentioned that he received Toronto channels from the CN Tower but not CTV, who on their ctv.ca web site mentioned in their time line that HDTV transmissions began on a certain date in 2003 from a Toronto transmitter on Channel 40. I thought it was strange they never mentioned the CN Tower. :rolleyes: