There is no need for a distribution amp with the AP4700 it has more than enough gain to use a 3 ways splitter without affecting signal strength.

So I did a bit of Fox tweaking tonight, and it's still not what I would call reliable. I get the odd dropped frame every 5 minutes or so (as I type this it's more like every 1 minute and getting annoying). And WUTV seems to get weaker as primetime approaches, there has to be some explanation why that is.

Anyways...

If my signal is fragile as-is with the splitter in the line, the novice in me thinks that it would be less fragile if I either took out that splitter (not really an option) or inserted a distribution amp. However I trust that I'm missing something and hoping you can help me understand why this isn't the case.

It's about a 40-50' RG6 run from the antenna to the wiring closet (where the pre-amp transformer is located). Then it's about another 40' from that spot to the television.

Anything I can do to increase the reliability of Fox with my setup?

Pete

Just to clarify, is the preamp mounted right at the antenna? That's where it needs to be. The power injector is okay being in your wiring closet. With approx. 100' of RG6 you are losing about 6dB of signal, but the 4700 easily accounts for that and the 2 or 3dB lost at the splitter.

Yes, the preamp is mounted to the antenna mast (the outdoor portion of the preamp) and the power pack is plugged in in the basement about half-way into the RB6 run (the indoor portion of the preamp).

Personally I'm finding it a bit mind-numbing trying to figure out Buffalo signal strengths these days, despite the best efforts of several DHCers to keep us up to date on the big musical chairs game happening there with transmitters, stations, and networks! It might be best to let things evolve before spending much more on this, but then again maybe someone else in this thread gets WUTV-DT just fine... :)

Pnear could you describe that status of your signal strength when your dropouts occur. I find sometimes for me, WUTV will be at it's regular 65%, then alll of a sudden jump to 0% (causes lost frame) then jump to 35%, then back up to 65%. That happens fairly rarely, so its not a huge problem

but i do find that every minute or so, WUTV will jump from 65% to the 30's% and remain around 35% for a few seconds, and then return back to normal.

i think the complete dropouts are unfixable, but if you can can a strong enough signal, perhaps when the signal drops, this won't cause a skipped frame, just a lower percent.

Guys I know Iam beating a dead horse, and cant give up but.. :)

Iam on aquest need to get your Fox working.

I know someone that got a 4228 in Burlington installed and with out a preamp and the antenna pointed towards Buffalo he did not care too much about the Canadian signals he was able to pull in Fox in the mid to high 80's if Iam not mistaken.

Because he was using two tuners in his pc and in the future atsc tuners built in the new the tv he decided to get a preamp.

He also used a Winegard AP4700 with the preamp connected he lost Fox.

I said not to worry not a problem, just add attenuators he added a 6db before his two way splitter no change in signal. No problem, be cool just add another in series so he now has two 6db attenuators plus his two way splitter for a total signal reduction of 15-16db and guess what Fox back at high 80's to low 90's.

So is every other Buffalo channel.

So I did some experimenting tonight between 7 and 8 trying to get Fox to come in for Prison Break. Here are my notes/thoughts/findings:

- I have no attenuators, and all the stores are closed. So I used some old splitters I have and connected them in series. Overall I achieved 14db attenuation if you believe my splitter labeling. They are decent quality splitters. The first split was 7.5db loss (4-way split), second 3.5db loss (2-way split), third 3.5db loss (2-way split).
- I tuned the television to WUTV digital and analog and tested on each splitter.
- In every case, WUTV digital wouldn't tune digitally but the analg equivalent on channel 29 was clear as a bell.
- For the last splitter it still wouldn't come in still (analog still great) so I turned off the built-in signal amp on the television. Still nothing.
- At full attenuation, some of the other digital channels didn't come in, notably the toronto stations like SunTV and City.
- I engaged the TV's signal amp and what would you know it came in again, albeit really choppy.
- I dropped back one splitter (to about 11db attenuation) and it came in pretty well.
- I dropped back to no splitters (0db attenuation) and it comes in great on the television.
- I tested at a couple points during the operation and the PC tuner wouldn't bring it in. At zero attenuation it comes in choppy on the PC to no signal at all.

So I'm confused...
The crystal-clear analog reception makes me think that there is maybe too much signal. However the best signal I can get right at this moment on digital is zero attenuation.

Is analog 29 and 29-1 (RF channel 14) broadcast from the same antenna with the same power and directionality? That may be a red herring, I'm not sure.

Pnear Analog 29 is using a different antenna and its higher up about 30 metres more than WUTV-dt.This means its range will be less on digital.

Pete did you try and repeak the antenna for a stronger signal from Fox?

I just reread your post and realise that your Fox reception was never strong to start off with.

I thought you had great reception on Fox and then with the increase in power it got bad.

Its very difficult from your location to use a 4221 or any antenna and get all the stations from Toronto and Buffalo, the angle between them is too great.

In Burlington a 4228 can also get all the stations but on a average of high 50's to low to mid 60's on most channels. A few channels from Buffalo higher.

If you swing the antenna more towards Buffalo/Grand Island you should be able to receive Fox better.

Maybe you can give that a try?

Looking for some advice on how to get Fox a little more stable. Here are my thoughts, some of which may be useful some maybe not.

Keeping it in the attic:
- get a 4228 (or something else, I'm open to suggestions) and point it to Buffalo, aim the 4221 at Toronto and combine the two in the attic. If I was going to do this, I'd probably want to put them on opposite sides of the attic although it would be easier to stack them on my existing pole.
- add a line amp in the basement before any splits. It seems like this wouldn't help since the pre-amp has lots of juice. But flipping on the internal amp in the TV does seem to make a difference on low signal days whereas the PC tuner doesn't come in at all on those days. The PC tuner is my top priority, so maybe an amp for the PC tuners would help?
- give up on Fox, hope that Global gets its act together sometime in the next year (and CFTO starts working on MCE even sooner).

Goining outside:
- mount the 4221 on the chimney pointed towards buffalo
- mount the 4221 on a tall trellace that is at roof level, would hide it more but would probably get overgrown in a year with wisteria.
- to be honest, neither of these options will be an easy sell which is why I'm leaning towards a second antenna in the attic.

pnear I dont think you will get the proper result that you are looking for with one antenna, even mounted on your chimney.

Using two antenna might get you there, also to try and get a 4228 in the attic might be difficult to get through the trap door if its small.

If you can reposition your current 4221 to get a much stronger signal from Fox then using two 4221 should work for you in the attic. This would be the least expense.

Remember to keep the cable length going to the combiner/splitter the same length.

Now that you mention it, yes it might be tough to get a 4228 up the attic access. Just to clarify, are you suggesting a second 4221 pointed towards Buffalo to try to enhance the signal? Or were you thinking that if I could dedicate one 4221 to buffalo I could use another to point to Toronto?

Problem with the latter thought is that the existing 4221 is already pointed as close to Grand Island as I can get it, I haven't put it "in the middle" as a compromise.

So whatever I do will need to help me get additional strength from WUTV. My gut says that would mean pointing both antennas in the direction of Grand Island/Buffalo with the understanding that there may be some weirdness with two antennas in the same space. But the intent of two 4221's would be to increase the buffalo signal, right?

Just checking before I make another trip to Lockport for another antenna.

I dont think your 4221 is pointed towards Grand Island for max signal from Fox. looking back your Nbc signal is high in relation to others so I know you should be able to go more west.

Do a quick test mark the pole position to the antenna and have signal display on Fox and turn the antenna to the west to see if the signal goes up if no then try to the east.

At that position you might still be able to get the Toronto stations if so then by using two and then pointing at the same direction should net you more gain.

If you find that you lost a few Toronto channels then you have to point one towards Fox/Buffalo and the other towards the CN tower.

By the way there is no problem to stack the antenna one on top of each other on the same pole. :)

I've played and played, I think I'm game to try stacking some 4221s. I'll let everyone know how it goes once complete (probably next week sometime).

Stacking 2 CM4221s might not get you the results you expect. A stacked pair of CM4221s will be comparatively finicky, twitchy, and more difficult to aim because its beam pattern will have been made extremely directional by that configuration.

The reason the CM4228 is so successful is that the CM4221's beam pattern lends itself to side-by-side mounting, not stacking. If you can borrow a CM4228 you can check your reception and also figure out the spacing and dimensions to create your own CM4228 clone out of your 2 CM4221s.

So initial results from stacking two CM4221s shows no improvement. I have them on the same pole, overlapping somewhat so that all 8 bowties are equally spaced. Equal cable lengths going into a good quality splitter, then running into the preamp.

I took my laptop up to the attic with me and a USB tuner to tweak the direction of the antenna and got FOX at the best signal I could get (50%). When the laptop was connected I didn't use the preamp. I also tried switching the leads on one of the baluns, chose the direction that gave me the highest signal.

Reconnected the preamp and tested down in the basement, get the same exact results from when I initially installed it.

Any other ideas?

pnear that is weird no change in signal ? What happens when you disconnect one feed going to the splitter ?

A suggestion try and move one antenna either to the left or right and see if the signal strength on Fox increases ?

Iam stumped as to why you have no increase in signal.

What about your other channels did they stay the same.

When I was using a dual antenna setup when I connected the other antenna the other stations increased by 1 on the signal bar out of 10.

Stacking 2 CM4221s might not get you the results you expect. A stacked pair of CM4221s will be comparatively finicky, twitchy, and more difficult to aim because its beam pattern will have been made extremely directional by that configuration.

The reason the CM4228 is so successful is that the CM4221's beam pattern lends itself to side-by-side mounting, not stacking. If you can borrow a CM4228 you can check your reception and also figure out the spacing and dimensions to create your own CM4228 clone out of your 2 CM4221s.

Stampeder from hdtv primer stacking keeps the same angle of coverage but reduce the elevation angle by half.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html

Mounting the antenna side be side reduced the angle of coverage by half making it more directional and kept the elevation the same.

Stacking a 4221 should give the same 30' angle of coverage.

If Iam not mistaken channel master did the side by side mount to help cut down on multi path by having a tighter angle of coverage.

I went back up tonight and played with the antennas pointing in different directions and the Fox signal went down. I hooked a single antenna back up by itself and the reception was horrible (although this is a different tuner so maybe direct comparison is not a good idea). With one antenna I was getting 20-30% reception with about 8db signal. With dual antennas I was able to get it up to 17db and when I was up in the attic about 70% reception, and that took alot of playing with wire locations, etc (where is the coax supposed to go on a 4221 anyways?). But then I plugged it back into the preamp, went downstairs and it wouldn't come in on the TV and was back in the 50% or less range. Maybe there's something up with the wire from the attic to the basement, or with the preamp?

a bit confusing, but you are able to watch a stable WUTV on your TV? If so maybe you just need a rotor.

or are you able to pull in a strong FOX but only without any cable run, which is therefore no good because who watches TV in their atic.

just want to make sure we understand ya