Stacking, Ganging, Combining TV Antennas - Page 85 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

 4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

post #1261 of 1264 (permalink) Old 2017-02-12, 04:53 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 706
My experience with the coax 1/2 wave balun is that it is not as broadband as the ferrite core balun. I recently did some tests on the 4221HD and the performance with the 1/2 wave was disappointing. As a matter of fact the ferrite balun also out performed the original CM printed circuit balun.

Openbox S9, 33”, 25" dishs, GeoSatpro, Avenger PLL LNBFs. Stab 90HH.
OTA, CM4221HD, 3410 amp, 3 way split, HW-150 PVR
Jorgek is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #1262 of 1264 (permalink) Old 2017-02-13, 05:37 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,929
Although it MIGHT be better than the PROBLEMATIC RF Combiner [Hybrid Ferrite Transformer, with not only Internal Loss, but also Losses due to Input Port Amplitude and Phase Mismatches, as we've recently discussed], I'm NOT convinced that the Simple Interconnect described above comes anywhere near the performance of an OPTIMIZED HHH (Holl_ands Horizontal Harness) or HVH (Holl_ands Vertical Harness), which calculate the Harness LENGTH and IMPEDANCE [Separations] which will MINIMIZE the OVERALL SWR Mismatch, while Maximizing GAIN across the entire Frequency Band of Interest...and of course Internal Loss is Minimal, esp. using Open Wires vice Coax:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stacked [The resultant Gain and SWR vs Frequency Results speak for themselves.]

In the 1/4-Wavelength Impedance Transformer, there is no such thing as a SINGLE Value for 1/4-Wavelength in UHF Band (Bandwidth Factor of 1:1.485) or even Hi-VHF Band (1:1.24] or FM Band [1:1.227], which degrades performance on the Band Edges:
http://whites.sdsmt.edu/classes/ee48...81Lecture9.pdf

The above 1/4-Wave Impedance Matching Network ASS-U-ME's that the Input and Output Impedances are a CONSTANT (whether 75-ohms or 300-ohms purely Resistive....a fairly good assumption for 144 and 440-MHz Bands, but NOT for TV), when in REALITY, the IMPEDANCE and esp. PHASE of pretty much ANY TV Antenna varies all over the place [see any of my 600+ Antenna Simulation Results, via my Signature Link], which is going to severely degrade what you THINK should be happening. [And if NOT using a Preamp, the Input Impedance of a typical Super-Het Tuner also varies quite a bit, due to using a Variable, Low-Q Band-Pass Filter on the Tuner's Input....although most (not all) Double Conversion Tuners would usually be much better SWR Match, since they usually do NOT have a Tuned Input.]

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands

Last edited by holl_ands; 2017-02-13 at 06:12 PM.
holl_ands is offline  
post #1263 of 1264 (permalink) Old 2017-02-20, 02:00 AM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,929
1) "BEST" Interconnect between two Identical Antennas would be either the Optimized HVH (Holl_ands Vertical Harness) or HHH (Holl_ands Horizontal Harness) which OPTIMIZES the fol. SIX Independent SYmbol Variables: a) Separation between the Harness Wires (determines Feedline Impedance), b) Distance of Harness from Active Elements (e.g. Bowties) and c) Total Harness Length [actually SUM of 2 Horizontal pieces and 2 Diagonals connecting Harness to Active Elements, which are INDIVIDUALLY Optimized in all except some early versions). NO RF Combiner Loss and Optimizes both Impedance and Phase Matching. Indeed ALL Interconnect Losses are accounted for, incl. SWR Mis-match and (negligible) Ohmic Losses in the Harness Transmission Line:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stac...q4hzwa41.dog_s

2) Second "BEST" is HHH or HVH, except with some sort of CONSTRAINT on the Design, such as forcing Horizontal pieces on either side of Common Feedpoint to be EQUAL, resulting in only FOUR independent SYmbol Variables (as I did in some of my early Designs).

3) Third "BEST" is HHH or HVH, except with even MORE CONSTRAINTS on the Design, such as Alternative (b) in the fol. Vertically Stacked CM4221 [old] webpage, where the Vertical Length in the Horizontal Harness was CONSTRAINED to be the SAME as the Vertical Stacking Distance and the Total Harness Length was determined by Optimizing ONLY the Distance of the Harness from the Active Elements. And of course, the Harness Separation determined the Transmission Line Impedance, while the Tapered connections to the Active Elements provided at least SOME Impedance Transformation. [This was one of my earliest KISS Designs with only TWO Independent SYmbol Variables.]
UHF Vert-Stack CM4221 4-Bays - OPT
Additional comparisons for mclapp's M4, incl. Performance vs Vertical Stacking Distance:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/stac...anglereflector

4) Fourth "BEST" is Equal-Length Transmission Lines connected to a Common Feedpoint, such as Alternative (a) in the Vertically Stacked CM4221 [old] webpage. Results are for 300-ohm Twin-Lead, although as noted, 440/450-ohm Ladder Line [as well as 600-ohm OPEN-LINE] would provides lower SWR [turns out that Impedance value is NOT critical]. Since there is only ONE SYmbol Variable [Length] for a given choice of Impedance, performance was significantly LESS than the above alternatives. Since Twin-Lead without an overall Shield has high loss when damp/wet/iced-over it it NOT recommended for Outdoor use.....and since Ladder-Line employs Plastic Insulator with perhaps 40-50% Air Cut-Outs, it only provides moderate improvement for the same problem. BTW: Instructions for DIY 300-ohm (or whatever) OPEN-LINE Interconnects can be found here:
Home-Brew Parallel Transmission Lines
[I'm still looking for the link to a particular Cable Stable P/N that was well suited for this purpose.....]

5) WORST is anything with an RF Combiner [typ. 0.5 to 1.5+ Loss, more on Higher Freqs].....which has not only Ohmic Internal Losses [see mrf Spec Sheets], but ALSO significant Amplitude and Phase Mis-Match Losses [which are dissipated by the Internal Resistor on the fourth Port of the RF Combiner's Hybrid Transformer], which can be seen in measurements at www.antennashacks.com ALSO, bear in mind that these measurements are for PERFECT 75-ohm Input/Output Terminations....whereas in the REAL WORLD, there will be additional, unknown Losses due to Impedance Mismatch to the Antennas and whatever Amplitude/Phase Mis-Match there may be between the two Antennas, esp. if Elements are damaged or Balun and Connections degraded.

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands

Last edited by holl_ands; 2017-02-20 at 02:39 AM. Reason: ,
holl_ands is offline  
 
post #1264 of 1264 (permalink) Old 2017-02-20, 02:53 AM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 2,929
FWIW: Fol. 3-Bay Bowtie Investigation shows that there is a RIGHT way to Interconnect three Antennas [whether they be Individual Bowties or more Complex Arrays]....and some that are NOT:
UHF FF3 3-Bay Bowtie - NO Reflector

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands
holl_ands is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome