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post #1276 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-20, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
Whether the trap is inside or outside the amp, you will get about the same insertion loss (though an external one will have a very small amount of connector loss).
For stuff like this, insertion loss is pretty much entirely connector loss, around 0.5dB or so. So building it into the amp will eliminate practically all of it.

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post #1277 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-20, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by PanaMark View Post
hey are you still using the KitzTech amp as your outdoor pre amp with your water proof set up? I know you had issues with resetting the power supply every now and then. Is this still the case?

I have replaced it with the RC. But it worked great when I had it mast mounted. The only problem was it losing strength (or overloading? like intravino mentions) after being plugged in for a long period. I simply reset the power every once in awhile.

Once the coax powered Kitz is released I will defintely buy one and sell my RC.
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post #1278 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-20, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kkoceski View Post
Does anyone know if I am accomplishing the filtering I'm hoping for? I guess I'm asking if that UVSJ is a effective FM trap...
Yes, a UVSJ is normally a very effective FM filter. You can confirm this yourself, by connecting your coax to the back of a stereo (FM) receiver and trying to tune some distant stations. Strong local stations will probably still leak through the coax, though -- at 50kW-100kW, they hardly need any receiver antenna at all.
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post #1279 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-20, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by kkoceski View Post
So, my hope is that I will be filtering out anything below UHF with that UVSJ. I know I'm suffering connector loss, but that's unavoidable (unless I make the coax-loop balun with a long signal coax incorporated in it). Does anyone know if I am accomplishing the filtering I'm hoping for? I guess I'm asking if that UVSJ is a effective FM trap...
Yes, The UVSJ makes an excellent VHF/FM trap. I can't notice any loss even with the weakest stations using either an UVSJ or HLSJ. I did notice a bit more loss on UHF when using a conventional FM trap (around 3db insertion loss vs 0.5db)
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post #1280 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-20, 06:49 PM
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If the timer is a modern digital one, it might even save some electricity (the old-style mechanical timers use way more power than many of things we plug into them here; the newer digital ones are much more efficient).

Watch out! Some digital ones are as power hungry like the old timers.

I did a test of some at Crappy Tire and the lowest price digital one was consuming 4 or 5 watts.

The more expensive one at the same store did consume only 1 watt.

As for the overloading of the Kitz Tech amp, my theory is that:

It's static build up maybe.
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post #1281 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-20, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by keef View Post
I believe the UHF port on the UVSJ should act as an excellent high-pass filter. The VHF band, including the FM band, are probably reduced by 30 dB or more.

Ideally you'd like a band pass filter for the UHF band (470-700 MHz), but I don't know of any easy (cheap) way to achieve that.
Although Pico-Macom doesn't provide suppression specs for the UVSJ and HLSJ,
Holland says their similar Splitter/Combiners provide 25 dB (typical) suppression:

Fol. 175 MHz High Pass Filter has more than 31 dB suppression of FM Band:
Note that it is intended for Amateur Radio use (50-ohm, BNC connectors).

And a couple more intended for Amateur Radio market:

FYI: Freq Response Curves for FM Filters from Tin Lee:

and (for a price) a Hi-VHF+UHF Band Pass Filter:
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post #1282 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-21, 12:35 PM
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Kitztech overheating problems


I've been discussing various issues with someone at Kitz Tech regarding their KT-100VG amplifier. I have also referenced this thread so hopefully he will see any replies we make regarding their products.

One item that he has asked me but I am unable to answer at this point is how many people have experienced overheating and would you be willing to send your overheated amplifier back to their lab so they can test it?

He did tell me they will start looking into the issue now they are aware of it but they want to see how widespread the issue is as that will help narrow down the cause of the problem and hopefully fix it before the co-ax powered amplifiers go on sale in September.

So, who has experienced that problem and how bad is it (frequency/seriousness/how hot does it get)?
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post #1283 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-21, 04:38 PM
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Location: Malabar, FL 32950
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Kitztech overheating problems

This is probably just the opposite of what you are asking for, but may be good input to see how widespread the problem might NOT be :

I've got 2 KitzTech's (1 for the 91XG / 1 for the 43XG). I've had no problems with either of them. They are in an Attic in FLORIDA, so they've certainly been exposed to high temperatures. Yes, I've had intermittent problems, but when that happens, I go to my VHF channel (with a CM7777), and usually see degradation on it as well, so I blame it on the weather.

If the KitzTech guy wants to see a couple of perfectly good functioning units after they've been exposed to high temperature (Kitz being out of WI and all), I can ship them mine if he ships me a couple of the even Lower Noise units to replace them with (I had to try).

Anyway, to plug this site - Thanks for the Kitz recommendation, the coax-loop balun, filtering advice, and I'm sure a few more not at the tip of my fingers. Also, I look forward to some sort of GH (Gapless?) that might be in my future.

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post #1284 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-21, 06:21 PM
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One thing I will say for KitzTech is that I have been impressed by their customer service.

I have been discussing their amplifiers with one of the people there all day via email (4-5 emails back and forth) and have found the replies have been prompt and indicate good knowledge of the product and general antenna design/amplifier issues.
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post #1285 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-23, 09:11 PM
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Location: Beloeil
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Winegard AP-3700


Does someone have or had the Winegard VHF/FM AP-3700 Preamp?

I need to know if it is a good preamp, I would like to amplify my CH6 VHF antenna.

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post #1286 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-24, 04:56 PM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: GTA & Kawartha Lakes
Posts: 31
Extreme Deep Fringe results with a RC 9254

I received my Research Communications 9254 pre-amp in about 10 business days. It arrived without triggering any handling fees, duty or GST/PST . I finally had it installed at my cottage on a 40’ tower with an original CM 4228. It replaced a CM 7777. I am located in the extreme deep fringe (Toronto – 110 km, Buffalo – 170-210 km, Batavia – 160 km).

Prior to the switch, I was receiving WPXJ, WGRZ, WIVB, WKBW, WNLO, WNYO from Batavia (ION) and Buffalo plus the local analog channels: CBC, CTV, Global, TVO and A-Channel. On only a few occasions have I been able to receive CBC from Toronto but no other channels (nothing like watching my Leafs lose in HD on a Saturday night). However, the Batavia and Buffalo channels are only watchable during good tropo conditions otherwise there is no signal or severe pixelation and freezing. The Buffalo signals also seem better at night than during the day.

I was hoping that the RC 9254 would reduce the amount of pixelation on the Buffalo channels and would allow me to receive the closer Toronto channels. My TV does not have a signal meter so my observations are purely subjective. With respect to the analog channels, there seems to be some minor improvement – the picture appears to be a bit sharper. There also appears to be some minor reduction in the amount of pixelation on the Batavia and Buffalo channels, especially ION (WPXJ), however, during none-tropo conditions, the picture was still not watchable – no miracle here. Most disappointing is my continued inability to receive Toronto channels . I was hoping to see similar results to mlord who in post 928 in this thread reported “pulling in WNPI-DT out of nearly nothing”. Perhaps I am simply too far out to receive Toronto channels since they are much lower powered than Buffalo channels. Too bad I can’t locate another original CM 4228 to stack.

In summary, was in worth it? The difference between the CM 7777 and the RC 9254 was hardly profound. However, I will reserve final judgment until I can test it under all conditions. Let’s see what happens when the leaves fall and the weather turns a bit colder. I think that in order to see a real difference between the RC and the CM, it probably depends on your location. In my case, and in others in this thread, it didn’t make a huge difference. However, in mlord’s location, it did. If I had to do it all over again, would I have replaced the CM 7777 with a RC 9254? Based on what I have seen so far, no, however that may change depending on whether or not I can pull in Hockey Night in Canada in HD from Toronto this winter!

The CM 7777 will soon be powering my DB4 in Toronto.
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post #1287 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-24, 05:21 PM
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Your results are more or less the same I got with a RC9254 on loan form a DHC member at my location. I was trying to get better signal of a ABC affiliate in Vermont that I get with a CM7777 and 10y13s at the lower end of 50 to 60 %.

The RC 9254 was 5 % worst then the CM 7777. I even tried it with my 4228 and I saw no improvement over the CM 7777. I was not expecting a miracle solution and my antenna is high gain and aimed well.

We are seeing a now pattern with the RC preamp.

Message to STL: I don't think your RC 9254 was defective.

My two cents,
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post #1288 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-24, 05:21 PM
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So there will be 2 new models (a coax powered one in September and a future lower noise version).
This may be a redundant detail, but just to be clear, my understanding from Kitztech, is that the coax powered model may be oredered and OBTAINED as of NOW...

when I asked why we have to wait until September, they replied that one may be processed now if absolutely necessary!

And still no waterproofing
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post #1289 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-24, 05:30 PM
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Location: GTA & Kawartha Lakes
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Hi intravino,

I saw your results before I had a chance to install the RC 9254, so I was a bit concerned and unfortunately, it was not the solution I had hoped for. I didn't notice any channels becoming worse though.
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post #1290 of 4206 (permalink) Old 2009-08-24, 05:36 PM
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WVNY Ch13 is very tricky to get in here.

I found it weird that STL said that he was getting lower with the RC.

But I saw the same thing with my setup and my location. I used a TivoHD, Samsung built-in tuner, CM 7000, Apex 502 and Zenith DTT901 for my tests.

Same result. But I can't wait to have the new Kitz Tech preamp but I could be disappointed also.
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amplifier , dtv , ota , preamp , signal strength

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