ATSC2.0 (H.265) & ATSC3.0 (UHDTV 4K) Discussion - Page 5 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

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post #61 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-03, 05:15 PM
 
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"So existing inventory of HDTV's will lose the ability to watch OTA TV programs until you bite the bullet and buy an External ATSC 3.0 STB or DVR....or all new HDTV's."

Don't you think the outcry will be immense? Imagine millions of people who have bought HDTVs in the past few years having to retool?
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post #62 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-03, 05:36 PM
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Change is always difficult....but the "Outcry" didn't stop the DTV Transition.....nor Digital Cellphones replacing Analog Cellphone....and ALL Analog Cell Towers going dark.

But it shouldn't be any more difficult than adding an External STB (est. $50 to 150).....with no monthly fees like CATV.

But as I said, they COULD let the three (four?) Major Networks maintain an ATSC 1.0 Transmission for say a 10-year "Transition" period....eventually most of the old sets will die of natural causes anyway....Two of my kids have already lost 50 & 60-in Panasonic Plasma's to wayward R/C's thrown by the G-Kids....and my FIRST HDTV only plays back Kids DVD's in their room.

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post #63 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-03, 06:11 PM
 
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The transition from NTSC to ATSC had the benefit of MAJOR picture improvement. A 4K picture is MINIMALLY better than 1080p. I had to inspect VERY closely the difference between a 4K TV and a 1080p one at Best Buy before I noted a SLIGHT improvement. Since Best Buy could not demo any actual 4K streams, BB had to continually run a 5 minute 4K clip of the Eiffel Tower LOL. Because I'm in a TV buying mode I was making the comparisons in store - the 4K picture quality difference is just not worth the extra $500. Even the BB salesman had to admit, sitting\standing 10 feet from both TV sets, the difference was hardly noticable (if at all). One had to stand 3 feet away from both sets to notice a difference! To revolutionize on that basis???
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post #64 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-03, 06:15 PM
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CraigRoyce we're not really discussing the current consumer value proposition of 4K OTA here because it does not yet exist, so we're looking at the technical goodies to come in the near future with the new ATSC2.0 and ATSC3.0 standards, and the broadcasters are confident that the benefits will be beyond just picture quality. Also keep in mind that ATSC2.0 is backwards-compatible with today's ATSC1.0 tuners, while ATSC3.0 is not. You'll find some great links posted earlier in this thread to identify the benefits of those two proposed standards.
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post #65 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-04, 02:17 PM
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The BIGGEST improvement in PQ is going to be for the all-important SPORTS programs (e.g. ABC, FOX, ESPN's)...which will go from current 720p@60Hz to 1080p@60Hz as well as some programs at 2160p@60Hz....unfortunately 120Hz Refresh Rates didn't make the cut.

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post #66 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-04, 08:36 PM
 
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The Lakers and TWC did a 4K test with Cisco, they were able to show raw 4K in stadium and transmit a 4k image to offsite locations. The offsite locations showed video about 8 seconds after the action due to transcoding/converting constraints.

I can't find the original article but this one covers some of the test.

TWC Sports Conducts UHDTV Tests | TvTechnology

I'm sure this will be our new standard, the gold at the end of the rainbow exists for conventional OTA broadcasters to offer services on par with satellite/cable providers, cellphone companies and datacasters.

This is a MUCH bigger change than 480i to 1080i, this is more like learning to fly compared to landing on the moon and is only going to get better at an accelerated rate.

HBO have a funny show called "Silicon Valley" and it's protagonist's are trying to market the "ultimate" logarithm for streaming 4k and all the foibles that go along with being part of that industry, competition, egos etc. It's worth a watch... Unless dick jokes and crude humour upset you.

Last edited by Frankzappa; 2015-08-04 at 09:19 PM. Reason: Slightly off topic but it's relevent on a new "standard"
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post #67 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-04, 09:37 PM
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There is / was a 4K test signal on CBAND satellite at 103W. I think it is still there... During the consumer electronics trade show I tuned it with my PC based sat tuner to check out the demo signal, and it came to a crawl. Impossible for me as I always have old hardware///
Gonna take some serious GPU to display that stuff smoothly on our PCs when the day comes... By the time that happens, we will have leaped a few more bounds via Moore's Law...And I may actually be using a suitable PC by then

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post #68 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-05, 12:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigRoyce
A 4K picture is MINIMALLY better than 1080p. I had to inspect VERY closely the difference between a 4K TV and a 1080p one at Best Buy before I noted a SLIGHT improvement.
This is also important to remember whenever anyone says "who cares about 4k, 8k is what matters!" The law of diminishing returns as we approach the limits of humans visual acuity means that the difference between 1080p and "4k" will seem much bigger than the difference between 4k and 8k.

I think the largest benefit of new OTA HD standards is being able to transmit more data with less spectrum. Encoding efficiency.
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post #69 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-05, 02:21 PM
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Which in turn allows TV Spectrum to be Auctioned off to the Cellphone Industry for TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS...which in turn HELPS to reduce the Federal Budget Deficit....the REAL REASON Congress mandated this whole thing....which is facilitated by HVEC Efficiency improvements.....it' all Interconnected:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...of-tv-spectrum

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post #70 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-05, 03:01 PM
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Well, I'd say that's better than having spectrum "wasted" by sending MPEG2 encoded video, especially at high resolutions. I think it makes a tonne of sense to squish down the signal as much as possible, and insert as many channels as possible into the spectrum, while maintaining the video quality.
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post #71 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-06, 02:13 AM
 
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I think it makes a tonne of sense to squish down the signal as much as possible, and insert as many channels as possible into the spectrum, while maintaining the video quality.
NHK, the Japanese Pubic Broadcaster, is showcasing "Large capacity transmission of over 90Mbps at 6MHz using ultra-multilevel OFDM technology (4096QAM) and dual-polarized MIMO technology."

ATSC 3.0 ?Physical Layer? Technical Proposals Being Evaluated - ATSC

If you google "NHK 8k public display" you'll see they have set up free viewings of movies/sports and other events in public spaces to show off their wares and sell the technology, a well placed bet given Japan's dominance in emerging technology.

Events | 8K Super Hi-Vision | NHK

They plan to show the 2020 Olympics in 8k, and they are already set from a domestic point of view.

NHK to Broadcast 2020 Tokyo Olympics in 8K - Via Satellite

The longest they've been able to send an 8K UHF signal is 27km, I'm sure in time they'll surpass that by 2020.

Japan's NHK tests long-distance 8K TV broadcast signal | PCWorld

The future looks bright for broadcasting.
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post #72 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-06, 08:36 AM
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4096 QAM.. Now that is funny...

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post #73 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-06, 07:26 PM
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Using ACTUAL CATV SNR Measurements on COMCAST (USA) & SHAW (Canada), Qualcomm determined that 70% of users could successfully receive QAM4096 (with 9/10 Code Rate) and nearly ALL could receive QAM1024 upgrade (QAM256 is current "standard"). So at least 30% of CATV systems would need more stringent Maintenance and/or Equipment Upgrades with "better" SNR performance....OR.....replace with Fibre-Optic-To-The-Home (like FIOS):
http://www.ieee802.org/3/bn/public/s...e_01a_0912.pdf

Note that better performance relies on choice of Error Detection and Correction Code, Lower NOISE, Lower IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) Amplfiers and perhaps reworking the HFC Divider/Coupler Network....and weeding out marginal equipments.

ARRIS calculates a slightly smaller predicted success percentage using a different SNR criteria for QAM4096 (with slightly more powerful 8/9 Code Rate)...as well as QAM2048 and QAM1024:
http://www.arrisi.com/dig_lib/white_...ss_Network.pdf

BTW: It is already a part of European DVB-T2 Specs:
https://www.dvb.org/resources/public..._Factsheet.pdf

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post #74 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-06, 07:37 PM
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I guess I could see that working on Cable, part time, on some channels but not all channels, all the time, providing like ya say they upgrade / maintain their old systems properly. I am sure an Adaptive approach would work well for them. Meaning, changing the modulation and coding scheme on the fly based on the specific channel conditions. Much like is done today on Satellite with DVB-S2 ACM/VCM. Should be much easier to implement on cable since they already have an uplink path that could be used to provide the necessary feedback.

FWIW, was playin around with cable tuning just the other day. And many channels come in at 40 dB snr now, and that's with some less than desirable splitting going on in the house. But at the same time there may be a channel(s) adjacent to a 40 dB'er that are only at 29 dB or so.
So, it seems to vary quite a bit here from one channel to the next.

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post #75 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-11, 01:31 AM
 
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It is not just about the resolution. Also you need to consider the compression bitrate. H.265 is way better than MPEG2. Currently the TV programs are compressed with MPEG2 code and since the bandwidth is limited, so you will see blurred pictures some time. But if with H.265, it would be much sharper and vivid. I have seen the Netflix' 4K contents. And they do look better than current 1080i or 720P programs.

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