ATSC2.0 (H.265) & ATSC3.0 (UHDTV 4K) Discussion - Page 4 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

 4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

post #46 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-23, 01:40 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Kitchener
Posts: 780
Quote:
business people and corporations tend to want a well defined space of operations, staking their limits to the shared 6mhz block.
Businesses are concerned #1 on profit and this opportunity to share channels/spectrum opens up huge opportunities.

KLCS and KJLA were one of the first to try channel sharing and once the spectrum auction comes KLCS will be partnering with KCET, selling their spectrum to the government.

http://www.ctia.org/docs/default-sou...ring-pilot.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLCS
Frankzappa is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #47 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-23, 03:06 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,059
Current ATSC systems are constrained to carrying only TWO HD (720p or 1080i) Channels...and a small number of SD programs (see RabbitEars summary above).

When ATSC 3.0 is widely implemented, I estimate it will be able to support ONE backward compatible ATSC 1.0 HD (1080i) program (abt 8 Mbps), ONE "4K" program (abt 15 Mbps Max per current Netflix practice) and perhaps ONE (1080i) or TWO (720p) HD programs in HVEC (abt 4 Mbps Max) & ONE or TWO low data rate H.265 Mobile feeds (depending on StatMux data rate reduction efficiency)....they'll be BEGGING for outside customers to share their costs when they FINALLY have sufficient capacity to share. Note that some channels could elect to NOT support either a backward compatible ATSC 1.0 program or a "4K" program and could support EIGHT HD (for 720p or 1080i using HVEC) programs plus many SD's (i.e. FOUR TIMES current channel practices). And it would only take a few more OTA Channels to provide DOZENS of SD Subscription Channel offerings, such as are found on CATV systems.

Bear in mind that HVEC Encoder/Decoders are at a very early stage in their development. Just as was seen in MPEG2 and then MPEG4 systems, the Data Rate Efficiency as well as picture quality will be significantly improved as HVEC becomes more readily available, allowing even MORE programs to be supported than what I've assumed.

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands
holl_ands is offline  
post #48 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-31, 08:45 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Kitchener
Posts: 780
I guess no one has locked in the new signal.

The Futurecast test is not the first, the first test was in Baltimore last year, I reported it elsewhere but it got zero hits.

Technicolor were the first to broadcast a 4k OTA picture in North America in conjunction with Sinclair Broadcasting.

Technicolor and Sinclair Broadcast Group Demonstrate Live Next Generation Television Platform for Broadcasters - Technicolor

Technicolor is now investing in HDR (High Dynamic Range) as a way to offer a more detailed picture, there are a couple of Cinema's capable of showing this new tech. Using HEVC this could allow a person with a 4K tv to see the 4k image while people with non 4K tv's would still get a hi def image.

One of the advantages of HDR is even a 1080i picture will be more vibrant than what we currently get.

Technicolor's tech could be the HDR TVs have been looking for | TechRadar

I think all these ideas are fantastic and bode well for the future of OTA Broadcasting.
Frankzappa is offline  
 
post #49 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-31, 09:27 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,291
Cleveland was propagating over here pretty good last weekend.
Had we had the proper receiver, capable of the modulation scheme they are using, I am sure we would have.

DB4E/VHF Yagi rotor FM Bandstop ap-8700 preamp 4way split LG lcd.
majortom is online now  
post #50 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-31, 10:01 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: South Kitchener
Posts: 780
Quote:
Had we had the proper receiver, capable of the modulation scheme they are using, I am sure we would have.
You didn't need any extra tech, the signal was also broadcast in ATSC 1.0 meaning any current tv could receive it.
Frankzappa is offline  
post #51 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-31, 10:14 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,291
Ahh OK.. there is an RF 31 on the other side of Lake Erie (Woodstock) that also normally gets here when it's ducting, like right now So it's possibly just adding some co-channel interference at this end of the lake then. Any idea what the antenna pattern looks like?
Or what the Transport ID (TSID) is??

DB4E/VHF Yagi rotor FM Bandstop ap-8700 preamp 4way split LG lcd.
majortom is online now  
post #52 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-31, 10:59 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Leamington, Ontario
Posts: 508
I picked up this test signal way back on Apr 23. Identified as WI9XJY 31-1 with PSIP of "ATSC 3.0 Test Transmission" format was 1080i with test pattern bars. Saw it about 2-3 times since but not recently. Came in better than most of CLE when it was active.

[SIZE=1]AD 91XG (UHF) / Antennacraft Y10-7-13 (VHF) / CM7777 Preamp
Phil81 is offline  
post #53 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-31, 11:16 PM
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 738
Forgive my lack of knowledge. But don't you need an ATSC 3.0 tuner to receive the signal?

Just trying to remove that damn setup progress bar.
Wheelman is offline  
post #54 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-31, 11:27 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Lorain OHIO 44052
Posts: 78
I never saw it here 30 mile west on cleveland. But 31.1-31.6 WPXD is Ion. During tropo i lock in on some times its overrides my pbs on 49.1 WEAO Akron OHIO

Toshiba 55 HT1V ,RCA TVPRAMP 1R,50Ft RG 6 Home made GH No refelectors, 33 FT
amcgoody is offline  
post #55 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-07-31, 11:47 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Leamington, Ontario
Posts: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelman
Forgive my lack of knowledge. But don't you need an ATSC 3.0 tuner to receive the signal?
It was transmitted in regular ATSC like any other channel the few times I got it. They were probably in ATSC 3 much of the time during actual tests.

[SIZE=1]AD 91XG (UHF) / Antennacraft Y10-7-13 (VHF) / CM7777 Preamp
Phil81 is offline  
post #56 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-02, 02:21 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,059
Errata: "When ATSC 3.0 is widely implemented, I estimate it will be able to support ONE backward compatible ATSC 1.0 HD (1080i) program (abt 8 Mbps)..." [Obviously you can't simulcast ATSC 1.0 and 3.0...they're completely different waveforms.....or can you????]

I HAVE seen some recent articles re transmitting TWO different TV waveforms in the SAME Frequency Allocation....using Carrier-In-Carrier (CnC) Adaptive Cancellation Technique:
https://www.telesat.com/sites/defaul...in-Carrier.pdf
http://www.comtechefdata.com/technologies/doubletalk

Should Read: "When ATSC 3.0 is widely implemented, I estimate it will be able to support ONE backward compatible MPEG2 HD (1080i) program (abt 8 Mbps)...." [Although not sure why anyone would NEED to do that.]

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands

Last edited by holl_ands; 2015-08-02 at 02:55 PM.
holl_ands is offline  
post #57 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-03, 03:09 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 49
holl_ands: "Note that some channels could elect to NOT support either a backward compatible ATSC 1.0 program."

If that happened widely, what would that do mean for existing ATSC tuners in televisions of the past 5 years?
CraigRoyce is offline  
post #58 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-03, 03:19 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,059
I'm not quite sure I understand your question....compounded by my fuzzy writing:
Should read "MPEG2" rather than "ATSC 1.0"...everything within the SAME ATSC 3.0 waveform.

When I originally wrote that paragraph, in the back of my mind there was rattling around this idea of POSSIBLY transmitting an ATSC 3.0 waveform at a 16-20 dB lower level below a backward compatible ATSC 1.0 waveform IN THE SAME 6 MHz CHANNEL using the Carrier-in-Carrier Adaptive Technique I mentioned above. And yes, the 3.0 waveform would have a limited Local LOS range. I had recently read the fol. TV Technology article by Doug Lung..which could just as easily be applied to ATSC 3.0 transmitted at a lower level than ATSC 1.0 Primary:
LDM?Stacking Signals for Improved Performance | TvTechnology

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands

Last edited by holl_ands; 2015-08-03 at 04:16 PM.
holl_ands is offline  
post #59 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-03, 03:51 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 49
Would the existing TV tuners continue working OK under ATSC 3.0 for basic 1080i content?
CraigRoyce is offline  
post #60 of 103 (permalink) Old 2015-08-03, 05:11 PM
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,059
NO, proposed ATSC 3.0 is NOT backward compatible with ATSC 1.0 HDTV's....it will probably be an entirely DIFFERENT (COFDM) waveform...similar to what the REST of the World is using (e.g. DVB-T2 type)....

As ATSC 3.0 is phased in onto a MUCH SMALLER number of available Channel positions [we'll probably lose Ch38-51 to cell phones], they won't be able to assign TWO Channel positions to ALL networks, like they did for the Analog to Digital Transition. But perhaps the MAJOR Networks MIGHT be allowed to Transmit ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 on two Channel Positions....for awhile. [But none of this has been worked out yet.....]

If they don't have to change Channel Assignments [which would affect Transmitter, Waveguide & Antenna Systems], some Stations can simply upgrade the Software in their old ATSC 1.0 Exciters to the new ATSC 3.0 Exciter Software Build....and others will replace the Exciter with a new one. [Biggest impact is upgrading infrastructure to support "4K" data streams....for those who chose to do so....it is probably NOT mandatory.]

So existing inventory of HDTV's will lose the ability to watch OTA TV programs until you bite the bullet and buy an External ATSC 3.0 STB or DVR....or new HDTV's. And I'll probably buy a ONE CONNECT Future Upgrade Kit for my Samsung UDTV....whenever they announce ATSC 3.0 Tuner availability for the Kit.

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands

Last edited by holl_ands; 2015-08-03 at 05:27 PM.
holl_ands is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome