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Global's Transition PSIP Issues Explained - see Post #24

48K views 155 replies 50 participants last post by  OTA-London 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am currently seeing what I can only describe as digital "snow" on CICT-DT (Global) Calgary. It looks like analog snow but everything is on a green background. Is it just me?
BTW, Global on Channel 2 analog is just fine.

UPDATE: The station (on all channels) was briefly frozen on an image from an earlier commercial.
No sound on Channel 41. But on Channel 2 and on Shaw Cable 7 (both analog) the sound was as per the usual programming.

UPDATE 2: Everything back to normal, except that the PSIP information for Channel 41 is different. It now says CICT-HD (was CICT-DT) and strangely the signal level seems a little better than before.
 
#86 ·
Thanks.

I'm actually very aware of this issue. A few months ago, I got an e-mail complaint from a person in rural Oregon who could scan in all of the Oregon PBS SD subchannels, but not the main HD channel. Got him to send me TSReader for it and the TSIDs were mismatched. He called up OPB and they fixed the issue and it scanned right in.

Same thing happened a few months later with KMRZ-LD in Los Angeles, and I also observed the same issue on a translator for Las Vegas PBS. Not sure either was ever fixed.

- Trip
 
#87 · (Edited)
good catch flavoie on the TSID mismatching for Global DTV which could be causing the MC signal mismatch.

Did you PM and email that to the Global rep?

====

I wanted to add, that I had no problem "Add Channel" Scan for TVO digital. It was only Global that would not scan in, nor does it work trying to add it in manually. The signal is strong but when trying to tune to it through the guide, 7MC says there is "no signal broadcasting on that channel" kind of thing.

So because I could reach Global on my TV and on WinTV (native Hauppage software) it was only Windows 7 Media Center that would not recognize the signal.

All other channels work well for me in 7MCE. (setup is CM7778 + DBGH (DB8) in the attic)
CBC, CBC-FT, SunTV, TVO, CITY, OMNI,
I am looking forward to seeing CTV and CTV2 and even the french channel quality in a week's time.

I may need to get a separate VHF antenna to join with the CM7778 for 6 and 13 if they are flaky...
 
#90 ·
This is the blog post from Peter Near which I had been looking for which explains more in depth what PSIP gotchas you can have in Windows Media Center.

Troubleshooting ATSC Transport Stream Issues in Media Center
http://experts.windows.com/w/expert...-transport-stream-issues-in-media-center.aspx

Peter mentioned he would look into updating it but what's there is already very relevant (the TSID mismatch advice is in there as well) and can be used to debug the existing issues we have, well, now...
 
#91 ·
Here is a TSReader entry for a correctly formatted PSIP data used in the United States with two streams.

(HT - rabbitears.info)

Program Association Table
PAT Version Number: 5
Transport Stream ID: 1833 (0x0729)

PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 3 WGHP
PMT PID 64 (0x0040) - Program 4 TV8.2
Program Map Table(s)
Program Number: 3 WGHP
Descriptor: ATSC Component Name Descriptor
Component Name: WGHP-HD

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 49 (0x0031)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 14.164 Mbps Resolution 1280 x 720p
MPEG Video: Framerate 59.94 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 52 (0x0034)
AC3: Bitrate 448 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
AC3: Dolby Surround Mode not indicated
AC3: LFE Mode Off Dialogue normalization -24 dB
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x41432d33 (AC-3)
Descriptor: ATSC Component Name Descriptor
Component Name: Primary Audio
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 53 (0x0035)
AC3: Bitrate 128 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
AC3: Dolby Surround Mode not indicated
AC3: LFE Mode Off Dialogue normalization -24 dB
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x41432d33 (AC-3)
Descriptor: ATSC Component Name Descriptor
Component Name: Secondary Audio
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: spa
Audio type: undefined
Program Number: 4 TV8.2
Descriptor: ATSC Component Name Descriptor
Component Name: TV8.2

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 65 (0x0041)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 2.141 Mbps Resolution 720 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 68 (0x0044)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
AC3: Dolby Surround Mode not indicated
AC3: LFE Mode Off Dialogue normalization -27 dB
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x41432d33 (AC-3)
Descriptor: ATSC Component Name Descriptor
Component Name: Primary Audio
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined
Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table
Channel 3
Service Name: WGHP
TSID: 1833 (0x0729) NTSC: 08 ATSC: 35 NC HIGH POINT
Channel Number: 8.1
Carrier Frequency: 0
Modulation Mode: ATSC (8 VSB)
Source ID: 3
Descriptor: ATSC Extended Channel Name Descriptor
Extended Channel Name: WGHP, High Point, North Carolina
Descriptor: ATSC Service Location Descriptor
Service Location Descriptor:
PCR PID 49
Stream Type 0x02 (MPEG-2 Video) ESPID = 49 Language =
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 52 Language = eng
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 53 Language = spa
Channel 4
Service Name: TV8.2
TSID: 1833 (0x0729) NTSC: 08 ATSC: 35 NC HIGH POINT
Channel Number: 8.2
Carrier Frequency: 0
Modulation Mode: ATSC (8 VSB)
Source ID: 4
Descriptor: ATSC Extended Channel Name Descriptor
Extended Channel Name: WGHP TV8.2
Descriptor: ATSC Service Location Descriptor
Service Location Descriptor:
PCR PID 65
Stream Type 0x02 (MPEG-2 Video) ESPID = 65 Language =
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 68 Language = eng
 
#92 ·
Program Start times on EIT Table

navwizard,

In addition to the information from flavoie (and OTAJuncqui) regarding the TSID values. (Post #83)

I noticed that the start times on the EIT table for Global Ottawa is in 1970. I don't know if this will affect how WMC is behaving, but thought I would let you know.

Thanks,


Event Information Table
Channel 1
Service Name: CIII-HD
Provider Name:
Transport Stream ID: 17195 (0x432b)

---------------------------------------------
Starts: 02/08/1970 6:00:00 PM
Length: 134:24:24
EIT Source: n/a
Name: DTV Program
Description: DTV Program
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1

---------------------------------------------
Starts: 02/08/1970 6:00:00 PM
Length: 134:24:24
EIT Source: n/a
Name: DTV Program
Description: DTV Program
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1
 
#93 ·
Gang....

Thanks for the reports on the TSID. I am looking into it. (always good to do some testing before you just change stuff!)

I'll also follow up on the Ottawa time stamp. There is a device in the path to alter the TSID and virtual channel tables so they are correct for Ottawa. It may be affecting the time as well.

Thanks!


Dan
 
#96 ·
navwizard, just in case you have not heard, many people including myself are simply not getting a good enough signal to lock Global Ottawa 6.1 (VHF channel 6).

We have another thread at http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=1304609

...in which people are reporting their results, as well as people referring to common VHF Lo issues seen before in USA especially when power was lowered just like Global Ottawa. Lots of people are wondering if the channel will be moved to another channel, if power will be increased, etc, because they are not getting it. It just doesn't sound right to have to go on the roof to install rabbit ears, or not get the channel reliably when using a channel 6 single cut yagi in an attic with preamp.

Thanks a lot for checking in and for your feedback. I hope you will make this transition a success !
 
#97 ·
Thanks Navwizard, I'll be patient. :cool:

Similar situation to what flavoie describes is also happening in the London thread (also trying to get 6.1, but from Paris) http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=115171&page=70 .

On a separate note, are there any plans on the drawing board yet for the Global transmitters in the non-mandatory markets? I know a number of people particularly on the west side on London had better luck tuning in analog 29 out of Oil Springs than analog 6 in Paris, and would love to see the Oil Springs transmitter one of the first non-mandatory transmitters to go digital (although I guess Peterborough gets the honour of being first).
 
#98 ·
I noticed that the start times on the EIT table for Global Ottawa is in 1970.
looks like Unix time.

Possibly a linux OS / box in the system somewhere?
The ATSC standard may have adopted that as a standard...
 
#99 ·
Calgary CICT-DT visible again in VISTA MCE in Calgary

Thanks Navwizard,

Vista WMC is now behaving ok again, and CICT-DT here in Calgary is back to normal on my HTPC. Before the fall season and all...

One very big sigh of relief and again thank you very much!

Signed
One happy camper :)
 
#100 ·
Channel 27 still seems to be broadcasting an analogue signal.

I found with WMC that I had to do a manual rescan then edit the channel information. It seems to come up well now. Speaking of which, since I'm across the lake from the US I figured out the closest US zip code and used that in WMC. The listing showed Canadian channels. But I expect to have to change things over the week as the other stations transition over.
 
#102 ·
As for me now my computer only get 22.1 once and it is remapping to 8.1
I did a scan with the antenna on the tv it still gets 22.1 with no remapping so I removed the antenna did a scan then added antenna did a scan and it still gets 22.1 with no remapping to 8.1
With the computer workingas it should I can now get 25.1 remapping to 22.1 :)
 
#104 ·
CKMI now tunable

Navwizard,

I want to thank you for your work and consideration. I did a scan with my old Motorola DSR-550 today and I can now tune to Global Montreal. I couldn't be happier! This is testament to what an organization can do when it listens to its clients. Once again, thank you!

Boukman
 
#105 ·
Gang....

Glad to hear it's working better for you guys.

For those technical types interested, the PAT/PMT can either come from the PSIP generator, or from the encoder. When we put our new PSIP/Encoder combination in, we were getting high PCR errors if the PSIP unit generated the PAT/PMT, so set the encoder to generate them. An artifact of that is the Transport ID inside the PAT did not match the TSID in the PSIP. That seemed to work fine on all the TVs we tested so we didn't notice a problem, but it appears now that's what was causing some other devices to have trouble tuning, notably WMC.

It seems different devices work different ways. We can't test all of them of course, and I appreciate the feedback to help us out and your patience as we sort out issues.

Thanks!

Dan
 
#107 ·
Ottawa TSID

Hi Dan,

It looks like there is still a mismatch on the TSID for Ottawa. I can't tune global in WMC, either.

From TSReader

Code:
Program Association Table
PAT Version Number: 6
[B]Transport Stream ID: 17321[/B] (0x43a9)

PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 1 CIII-HD EIT Link

Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table
Channel 1
Service Name: CIII-HD
[B]TSID: 17195[/B] (0x432b) 
Channel Number: 6.1
Carrier Frequency: 0
Modulation Mode: ATSC (8 VSB)
Source ID: 1
Descriptor: ATSC Service Location Descriptor
Service Location Descriptor:
PCR PID 0x0031
Stream Type 0x02 (MPEG-2 Video) ESPID = 0x0031 Language = 
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0034 Language = eng
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0035 Language = eng

Event Information Table
Channel 1
Service Name: CIII-HD
Provider Name: 
[B]Transport Stream ID: 17195 [/B](0x432b)
 
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