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Global's Transition PSIP Issues Explained - see Post #24

48K views 155 replies 50 participants last post by  OTA-London 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I am currently seeing what I can only describe as digital "snow" on CICT-DT (Global) Calgary. It looks like analog snow but everything is on a green background. Is it just me?
BTW, Global on Channel 2 analog is just fine.

UPDATE: The station (on all channels) was briefly frozen on an image from an earlier commercial.
No sound on Channel 41. But on Channel 2 and on Shaw Cable 7 (both analog) the sound was as per the usual programming.

UPDATE 2: Everything back to normal, except that the PSIP information for Channel 41 is different. It now says CICT-HD (was CICT-DT) and strangely the signal level seems a little better than before.
 
#54 ·
Some further notes:

I wish I could understand why some of these devices are having trouble mapping.

The physical transmitter is channel 22, program stream 1, so it is logical the device finds 22.1, however it should then read the TVCT table which remaps it to 8.1.

The info in Michael DeAbreu post is correct:
logicalNumber="8" subNumber="1" physicalNumber="22" frequency="0"

.....well, OK, I'm not sure what frequency="0" means, but physical 22, logical 8 seems normal.

I'm also curious what some of you are seeing with the Seattle channels. KZJO is mapping to 22.X from physical 25, but that should actually be OK. Are some of you finding a physical channel 22 from Seattle?, because I don't see one in the maps.

HWP:
Don't hold me to this, but we're trying to get Ottawa up for August 15th. We're fibering the signal to the TX, so we're just finishing that up.

We currently have the SD inside there to help with the transition. I'll likely remove it later. In tests, the new decoders looked better at 12Mbps than the old ones did at 18Mbps. (Actually, the new encoders are pretty amazing really). It's a stat mux, so the actual bit rate may vary, but it's at 14-ish for now, but can ramp up to 17-ish.

I'm especially interested in laurienicol comment. The fact you get different results depending where you point your antenna indicates some sort of conflict with another broadcaster, but looking at the Industry Canada and FCC charts I don't see what it is.

Cheers!

Dan
 
#56 ·
@navwizard

laurienicol was reporting that the PSIP mapping problem with CHAN had returned and I can confirm that I am having that problem too. The PSIP mapping for CHAN stopped working within the past few days. My Samsung TV, for about a week period or so, was displaying CHAN as 8.1 and provided the station's call sign under channel information. Now it's back to how it has been for the past severals years: 22.1 and no call sign.
 
#59 · (Edited by Moderator)
Reply to navwizard

The real channel 25 from Seattle remaps to 22.1, 22.2 and 22.3. When the CHAN 22 (22.1) signal is not strong enough (ie when pointing the antenna down the gulf to catch KOMO) and I tune to the 22.1 channel, the TV first looks for CHAN, decides it's not there, and then deletes the Seattle set as well. Curiously, if I channel down backward to 22.3 first, it is okay. Just an nuisance to have to force the 22 set from channel 25, but not a crippling problem. If I point the antenna a little more to the east, I can capture both 22.1's at the same time but I lose KOMO down the Gulf.
Channel 22 (CHAN), until a couple of weeks ago, went to channel 8.1, just fine.

Laurie in Ladner CM4228 with rotator and a Panasonic TH-50PX500U (ie: 2005 model)
 
#60 ·
navwizard,

Don't know if this is of any value to you, you guys in Canada may do it differently then we do in here in the US, but I will throw it out as a life preserver. Use it if you see any value in it. By FCC mandate we have to start our first video program streams at Program 3. All made for US market converter boxes and receivers look for first video stream at Program 3. Programs 0-2 are reserved and no video data is presented there and that could be part of your issue.

With respect to Windows MC. Good luck. The folks from Redmond march to a completely different drummer. Been trying to get them to change my digital channel since we made the transition in 2009 and they are STILL pointing to the wrong RF channel. HUGE pain in the butt with viewers.

Good luck in your transition.
 
#62 ·
CICT-DT in Calgary on Vista MC

Still no joy, alas...
Same error on No TV Signal, but strength-scan gives 100%.

Wondering if I need anything extra (have latest drivers, reset and redid Vista MC ATSC hack for Canada, added channels manually again). It is purely related to the Windows MC-part as the Hauppauge WinTV detects and works fine for CICT-DT as it is now.

I also hope that the M$ people will finally understand that ATSC is active and alive in Canada, not just in the U.S. ... :(
 
#63 ·
I'm in the same boat as a few others. Ever since the PSIP issues started I can't get W7MC to display CHAN-DT in Vancouver. I've tried removing it and adding it back with no luck. It used to work fine but now I get full signal strength but a black screen. I'd never added it by scanning, I always manually added the channel as 8.1 with a frequency 22 but it just refuses to work anymore.
 
#65 ·
Scan for more channels

That option is for W7 only. Vista does not know that one.

I live too far from the US-border to even hope for some of my local channels to appear in any US-setup... I had to do the hack to just get the ATSC tuner registry-entries saved and applied after the fact, going back to a Canadian setup... Bummer that M$ will not support ATSC in Canada.

Maybe I should just move to the US, with their cheap houses and full OTA lineup
 
#66 ·
Global SD subchannel

Anyone notice global is now running a SD channel in their mux too? It's not in the tables, so you have to be able to define manual channels to see it. It's just an SD version of the HD feed. The video and PCR is on PID 0x41, and AC3 audio is on pid 0x44 and 0x45. The bitrate on the video is 4Mbps, which means the HD stream is now down to 14Mbps :(

Why waste 4Mbps of bandwidth to send a downconverted version of the HD? Ugh
 
#69 ·
OK, I've managed to fix my problem. I did a rescan and noticed it found CHAN-DT as CHAN-HD. I canceled the scan and added 8.1 freq 22 and named it CHAN-HD instead of CHAN-DT and it all worked. Then I copied the listing from the Global analog channel the way I always do when I manually add channels.

I guess W7MC is sensitive to the channel name matching.
 
#80 ·
bwalter....

That's "very" interesting. I do have a contact into Microsoft to try to understand how WMC is supposed to work, but to be honest I'm not sure I'll get a response.

I could certainly change the identifier. If someone with a WMC that's not working wants to PM me, we can coordinate a change and scan and see if we can get this WMC thing resolved.

Cheers!

Dan
 
#74 ·
CKMI Montreal

I'm disappointed with my old Motorola DSR550 (Voom) box. Global Montreal (CKMI 15.1) went on the air yesterday but my box can't lock on it when scanning even though it receives a very strong signal, so I have no way of programming Global into my channel list. I'm wondering if it might be related to the PSIP problems talked about in posts #24, 25 and 60 in this thread?
 
#78 ·
I'm disappointed with my old Motorola DSR550 (Voom) box. Global Montreal (CKMI 15.1) went on the air yesterday but my box can't lock on it when scanning even though it receives a very strong signal, so I have no way of programming Global into my channel list. I'm wondering if it might be related to the PSIP problems talked about in posts #24, 25 and 60 in this thread?
Boukman....

I'm not that familiar with the DSR550, but our cable division might be. I'll check with them. It's a bit of an old box now.

Cheers!

Dan
 
#79 ·
This is too funny. Channel 22 (CHAN) is remapping again. But now it's going to 46.1 instead of 8.1. At least it's shifting away from the Channel 25, FOX13 that was occupying the 22.1, 22.2 and 22.3 slots.

laurie in Ladner with a CM4228 and a 2005 Panasonic Viera
Good grief.

I have no idea where it's getting 46.1 from. That doesn't line up with anything we're sending out. Not sure what to tell you. I'm still suspicious there is PSIP coming from another station that's affecting it.

Cheers!

Dan
 
#77 ·
HTPC Forum for WMC Expertise

The general topic of Global PSIP issues with all ATSC tuners belongs here in the OTA Forum for basic purposes, but the HTPC Forum really is the best place for specific technical discussions about Windows Media Center configuration and alternative products. :)

A reminder to everyone that Windows Media Center and alternatives are discussed in great detail in our Home Theatre Personal Computer (HTPC) and Media Extenders Forum, where you will find our noted WMC gurus and experts.

So, keep discussing the Global PSIP issues seen in WMC and if you need to get into the technical configuration stuff then visit the many fine WMC threads in the HTPC Forum.

cheers
 
#81 ·
Something we found here in the states when stations changed channels or had issues in the PSIP they corrected, that many boxes needed a "double rescan." Meaning remove the antenna completely and do a fresh scan, NOT an add to scan. This cleans out the table. When the scan is complete and the box reports no stations, then reconnect the antenna Run another fresh scan (NOT an add to scan) again. In 95% of the time, this fixed problems in PSIP viewers were experiencing that the station was not transmitting.
 
#82 ·
foxeng, I concur with that advice. I've recently found on my Sony Bravia tuner that a complete rescan was necessary to grab new digital stations coming online.
 
#83 ·
navwizard, I have been reading about a common issue with Windows Media Center and PSIP streams and think I may have found something worth looking into.

An Ottawa member, OTAJuncqui, was kind enough to post the TSReader info he was getting for Global Ottawa, and upon quickly analyzing it, and checking on this document page 36, http://pds3.egloos.com/pds/200611/14/24/psip-tutorial.pdf it mentions the TSIDs should match.

*Program Association Table*

PAT Version Number: 5
Transport Stream ID: 1 (0x0001)

PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 1 (file:///C:/BIN/TSRead.htm#pmt_1) CIII-HD

*Program Map Table(s)*

Program Number: 1 CIII-HD (file:///C:/BIN/TSRead.htm#sdt_1)
PCR PID: 0x0031



Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 49 (0x0031)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 24.000 Mbps Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 52 (0x0034)
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 3/2 5 L, C, R, SL, SR
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 53 (0x0035)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor

*Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table*

Channel 1
Service Name: CIII-HD
TSID: 17195 (0x432b)
Channel Number: 6.1
Carrier Frequency: 0
Modulation Mode: ATSC (8 VSB)
Source ID: 1
Descriptor: ATSC Service Location Descriptor
Service Location Descriptor:
PCR PID 0x0031
Stream Type 0x02 (MPEG-2 Video) ESPID = 0x0031 Language =
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x0034 Language = eng
Stream Type 0x81 (AC-3 Audio) ESPID = 0x00
==

Should these 2 numbers (0x0001) and (0x432b) match ?
 
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