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Sympatico High Speed Edition

6K views 26 replies 8 participants last post by  JamesK 
#1 ·
Anyone remembers this? It came with unlimited download, a free browser from Netscape on CD-ROM called Navigator 2.0; and specific speed was not guaranteed as it was determined by cable pair length and quality.

Well I'm still on this old legacy deal; Bell calls on occasion trying to get me to switch. I get reliable 6.04 Mb speed 24/7 as measured at speedtest.net which means with overhead and error correction Bell must have me around something like 7 Mb download. My cable pair length is 1.1 miles direct from CO, there still isn't any available remotes installed. My speed is limited by the length and quality of the cable pair according to tests done 6 years ago.

Just a few days ago a Bell sales Rep asked me again to change offering me Fibe 10 unlimited download at about $7.00 less than my current cost. The sales Rep gave me his word that I would be getting an effective and real 10 Mb speed but refused to put anything in writing. Promising to put it in writing only after I accept switching.

The word of a sales Rep guaranteeing a set speed increase without checking with the technical department sounds too much like B.S. That plus the fact they refused to put anything in writing is why I refused the deal. But my main concern is what advantages would I lose if I give up this old legacy plan; I will most definitely not take the verbal word of Bell as I have had too many experiences.

Any thoughts?
 
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#2 ·
Don't believe a word the rep says they will flat out lie to you and have done to me on a couple of occasions that is why they will give you nothing in writing. Because after they have you on the hook when you call to complain they will start with that it is up to a certain speed is possible it is not a guarantee routine they do. Happened to me just this past week trying to get the weasels to see why my speed was only 2/3 of what I was supposed to have they finally sent tech and got it solved. On the Sympatico remember it well first non-modem connection to the internet I had, garbage namesevers that constantly timed out slowing the connection to a crawl. Best speed ever seen was ~300 KB/s down which in the lying marketing speak is 2.4mb/s at the time of installation then it was all downhill from then as they put their traffic shaping into practice slowing it down more. In short stick with what you have you know what it will do.
 
#4 ·
The rate will go up every year without failing to miss one. It has here anyways then I call and cancel they call to ask why I say you have broken the deal we agreed to they say but we have clause that allows us to raise it anytime we want. Then I say really so I can just decide to pay less any time I want then they will go ok we will credit that extra back which will usually last for couple of months before it starts again rise/repeat for a couple more times of BS. At least them morons at the Weaklink stick to their deals until they are done before they try it on for more cash.
 
#5 ·
I have finally found out the main difference between the 2 DSL services, the old legacy called sympatico high speed edition (HSE) and what is now called Fibe. It is the same hardware, same physical connections, the difference is in their speed limiting software.
They never promised any set speed for HSE; speed depends upon a variety of factors as they would claim at that time some 15 years ago.

The Sympatico High Speed Edition service and hardware leasing agreement states:
"Performance levels.
Speed is a function of the bottlenecks experienced upon the wider network architecture of the internet itself. As such your service provider does not guarantee the maximum HSE Service performance (throughput speeds) levels but will make every reasonable effort to ensure the highest possible quality of service is always delivered."


English is not my first language; not quite sure what that means from a legal technical perspective, has Bell shot itself in the foot? As I understand it: with HSE you always get the best possible speed. That was written when DSL technology was just starting, as yet undeveloped; since then it has evolved to adls2, vdsl, etc. The agreement does not even mention DSL, so where does their speed obligation end?

I have a copy of the full service agreement which I would attach to this post but it does not seem possible.
 
#13 ·
There are many threads on this site that discusses out of control rising prices, threads of various definitions of what DSL is, comparing technologies of various companies, etc. yet the title of this thread is Sympatico High Speed Edition. So as an attempt to go back on topic:
I asked if I was understanding Bell's HSE service and hardware leasing agreement correctly. I do not speak legalese, anyone here care to give a qualified opinion on the following?

I have finally found out the main difference between the 2 DSL services, the old legacy called sympatico high speed edition (HSE) and what is now called Fibe. It is the same hardware, same physical connections, the difference is in their speed limiting software.
They never promised any set speed for HSE; speed depends upon a variety of factors as they would claim at that time some 15 years ago.

The Sympatico High Speed Edition service and hardware leasing agreement states:
"Performance levels.
Speed is a function of the bottlenecks experienced upon the wider network architecture of the internet itself. As such your service provider does not guarantee the maximum HSE Service performance (throughput speeds) levels but will make every reasonable effort to ensure the highest possible quality of service is always delivered."


English is not my first language; not quite sure what that means from a legal technical perspective, has Bell shot itself in the foot? As I understand it: with HSE you always get the best possible speed. That was written when DSL technology was just starting, as yet undeveloped; since then it has evolved to adls2, vdsl, etc. The agreement does not even mention DSL, so where does their speed obligation end?

I thought initially this would be a hot topic, possibly becoming too controversial, but I would like very much an answer for when Bell calls to ask why I am switching ISP's after over 20 years with them. I feel so cheated,Bell has intentionally limited my speed to 6 Mbits for so many years, increasing prices far far far above Fibe 6.
I know for a fact that my cable pair direct from central office could handle 8 Mbits 10 years ago. Shortly after that time Bell removed all the back taps on the cable pairs greatly increasing possible speeds and a few years after, my line was transferred to a remote, again greatly increasing possible speeds. (it is Bell's policy to transfer all lines to a remote when possible as it decreases their operating costs) Yet their speed limiting software still has me at 6 Mbits. If I do understand the leasing agreement correctly, is this not fraudulent of Bell? Can anything be done other than simply switching ISP? What about the many others in a similar situation who do not know all the facts?
 
#6 ·
With DSL, the hardware limits the speed to 10Mbps or less. Real world speeds are typically about 5 or 6 Mbps but it can be as low as 0.5Mbps. Bell currently seems to limit the speed to 6Mbps or less. At one time, they throttled it to as low as 1Mbps. In the early days of DSL service in Canada, they lowered the maximum speed from 2Mbps to 1.5Mbps to reduce network congestion.

DSL2 (AKA FTTN) can deliver a maximum of 50Mbps, or 100Mbps with a bonded pair. That gets limited for cheaper plans.

Fibre internet (AKA FTTH) can deliver up to 10Gbps with the latest equipment or 1Gbps with equipment typically in service for residential customers. That also gets throttled for cheaper plans.

In reality, the cost between delivering 5Mbps, 25Mbps, 100Mbps or 1Gbps is negligible for most installations. They just leverage the ability to throttle speeds in order to squeeze more money out of customers able and willing to pay.

The cost difference between delivering lower data caps and unlimited service is also negligible. The actual cost of delivering a GB of data is under $0.01 (one cent) and is decreasing all the time. There are major costs for upgrading network infrastructure but networks need to rebuilt every 10 years or so anyway. The cost per Mbps of network infrastructure is also decreasing all the time. In reality, ISPs should be able to double the average network speed and capacity every two years at about the same cost. That's a factor of about 10 every 10 years.
 
#7 ·
meanwhile, capitalism fuels fiduciary greed

The actual cost of delivering a GB of data is under $0.01 (one cent) and is decreasing all the time. In reality, ISPs should be able to double the average network speed and capacity every two years at about the same cost.
And yet...


Yep. Just like last year, and practically every year for two decades, always new excuses to arbitrarily jack up rates, even when their costs are actually going down.

I'm ashamed to admit that I've been a continuous Bell Internet customer from as far back as the Nortel 1 Meg Modem days, but I've truly had enough this time. I've played the retentions/loyalty games, fought with the executive office of customer relations, and constantly "upgraded" to the lowest cost in-market plans to try to offset Bell's constant rate hikes. No more. Enough is enough. Their residential business model is fiendishly insidious. I've already signed up with a third-party ISP on a separate POTS line, and found it provides me much greater satisfaction. I'm excited because next week I'll be phoning Bell to cancel, and oh that will be such a relief to never have an account with them again!!
 
#8 ·
^^^^
I'm certainly no fan of Bell, but they have been doing a lot of installing fibre over the years. While technology is cheaper, it still costs a lot to run cable. They've realized that twisted pair is no longer viable, as people demand more bandwidth for Internet, TV etc. Rogers is also running out fibre, but they don't have the same pressure, as coax cable is capable of much more bandwidth than twisted pair. Also, the main cost of a cable is not the cable itself, but the labour etc., to install it.

You mention a POTS line. Well, that line is incapable of delivering anywhere near the bandwidth of coax cable, let alone fibre. I expect, in the not too distant future, Bell will be abandoning copper cables. Both Roger and Bell have been running fibre only into new areas for years.
 
#11 ·
^^^^ I'm certainly no fan of Bell, but they have been doing a lot of installing fibre over the years. While technology is cheaper, it still costs a lot to run cable.
But is it fair to saddle all of their customers, even those who have no interest in FTTH, with the supposed cost of upgrading/expanding their networks? Is the concept of raising capital funds on the stock market, for example, going out of fashion? There's ample evidence that ever since the majority of Bell's core services were deregulated, their retail customer rates have consistently gone up disproportionate to any reasonable factor. In Bell's 138 year history, their rates only began skyrocketing after being granted forbearance. Now, BCE operates under the premise that only profits/shareholders matter, customers and employees do not.

I've personally seen examples of a deceased family member's telephone bills filed away in a box among other personal documents, from the 1940s to 1990s, and I was really surprised to discover that monthly rates for all Bell services were shockingly steady for decades, up until the 1990s when things started going up, up, up. It's not as if growth and technological advancement in the telecom sector was stagnant for 100 years, and then all of a sudden commercial Internet came along and required complete rebuilds of networks every decade. Copper plant has an expected service life, and it's supposed to be accounted as a cost of doing business, not a sudden "uh oh, time to raise rates to pay for something we forgot to maintain". Fibre in the field may have a longer lifespan, but it's not as though stringing it on poles or boring it underground is any less costly of an undertaking than with copper wires.

A coaxial cable distribution system is designed primarily on a shared bandwidth principle, not a dedicated twisted-pair path back to switching facilities. Unless Rogers installs thousands of new neighbourhood nodes, they do not have the capacity to simply ratchet up bandwidth for every single customer. OTOH, Bell can only reduce the loop length of its "POTS" circuits so much, to increase the bandwidth it can serve, before it's not economically feasible anymore. So yes, both companies are on a very slow migration to a purely fibre-based network, but this will take decades to complete, even if money was no object. Reaching every single household nationwide with fibre might never happen because the incumbent telecoms claim there's no business case for spending oh-so-much of their insatiable profit margins outside of urban centres.

I say all this as a cautionary note: don't expect a fibre built-out too soon, unless you live in Toronto, Montreal, or a brand new subdivision/condo. It took a decade after "broadband" Internet DSL/HFC was first launched before it was widely available. Same for IPTV. Now, for competitive reasons, "Robellus" will expand FTTH deployment where they see fit, not where makes any sense to their lowly customers.

Anyway, the discussion was supposed to be about rates. Personally, I think it's ridiculous that Bell gouges all of its customers, regardless of whether they benefit from the so-called improvements to services. Would it be similarly okay if GM added $5000 more, every year, to the cost of each ordinary car it sells, just because they "invest in world-class research for things like driverless cars" that only benefit a small segment of their customer base? Maybe Tesla should double the cost of their cars in order to pay for Elon Musk's SpaceX research? :rolleyes:
I live in Kitchener, and there's no plan whatsoever for FTTH construction in so-called brownfield areas, here. So rhetorically, why should I pay higher and higher rates for basic DSL, to private corporation BCE, to subsidize FTTH overbuild in Toronto? :confused:
 
#9 ·
Being retired and living on a small street with fairly wide lots I have been keeping an eye out for Rogers or Bell laying fibre or replacing coax for FTTH. No sign. Cable is overhead on the power poles and phone/fine wiring is underground and has not been changed in 11 years at least.
I am sure they will get to it...there is fibre on the main roads around here, but it is that last half mile that is the problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
#10 ·
^^^^
That's the usual case. No point running in cable on the side streets before there's something to connect it to. I have seen a lot of Bell work in my area. They recently ran fibre in a friend's neighbourhood, in Toronto, where they had to run along poles in back yards.
 
#12 ·
I was just talking to a friend (same one with the fibre in her backyard) recently about phone bills. I mentioned that, after allowing for inflation, my phone bill from 45 years ago, cost much more than what I currently pay. Also, I have spent most of my career working in the telecom industry and have seen the changes that allow so much for so little. With Rogers, with a shared cable, they just have to move the fibre nodes a bit closer to the customer, to improve the bandwidth available to them. Even 20 years ago, the advantage of coax cable over twisted pair was obvious. Twisted pair cable is simply not capable of meeting the needs of modern communications. As I mentioned, the day's not far off when Bell is likely to abandon copper. Rogers has a bit more time, as their network has always been capable of much more bandwidth. However, with both companies, running cable costs a lot of money and that's not likely to change. Both Bell and Rogers are moving to fibre, to the neighbourhood in existing areas and right to the home in new. Running fibre all the way in existing areas will cost a lot more. Now I can't comment on Bell's pricing, but I do know that they charged extra for touch tone service for many years, even though it was not optional. And there are other areas they may over charge. No doubt there. But replacing a cable plant that has been built up over several decades does not come cheap. It happened a few years ago, in New York City, but that was due to Hurricane Sandy which flooded all the copper cables there. They had no choice but to rip out all that copper cable and replace it. If you're doing that, then you might as well replace it with fibre. Newer companies, such as Beanfield Metroconect, have only run fibre. Bell now has to catch up with the competition and the cost has to come from revenue.
 
#14 ·
I would like very much an answer for when Bell calls to ask why I am switching ISP's after over 20 years with them.
You pretty much said it already. Not enough internet speed for too much money. Fibe 10 may not provide much extra speed. The fine print always says "up to 10mbps." What you get will be limited by what the line is capable of delivering and how they provision the line. If its standard DSL, chances are they will provision it for 6Mbps again. If it's FTTN, you will likely get the full 10Mbps since the lines are generally capable of 50Mbps maximum.

I believe it was CBC's Marketplace that did a survey on what Bell customers actually received with Bell DSL. A large percentage of customers received considerably less than 5Mbps. Some limped along with 1 or 2 Mbps. These were not remote areas either. Some were major cities such as Montreal. I'd hope that those areas have been rebuilt since then but it seems as if Bell feels no obligation to deliver what they advertise. They also have been known to oversell services that cannot be delivered. I've heard of people being sold high priced plans that were not available in their area. One time, they unilaterally lowered my data cap. When I got a data overage, they tried to sell me a plan with a higher cap at twice the price. I told them to take a hike and switched to another company.
 
#19 ·
You pretty much said it already. Not enough internet speed for too much money. Fibe 10 may not provide much extra speed. The fine print always says "up to 10mbps." What you get will be limited by what the line is capable of delivering and how they provision the line. If its standard DSL, chances are they will provision it for 6Mbps again. If it's FTTN, you will likely get the full 10Mbps since the lines are generally capable of 50Mbps maximum.
.
I'm switching more about the principal, for what I perceive as fraud; the price/speed reason comes in second.

I have a copy of the full service agreement (english version only) there is no mention anywhere of any speed limits.

The agreement does not specify the technology they use, no mention at all about DSL but they do promise " your service provider does not guarantee the maximum HSE Service performance (throughput speeds) levels but will make every reasonable effort to ensure the highest possible quality of service is always delivered."

BTW, being on a remote, i.e. FTTN does not mean you will have a higher possible speed than if you were directly connected to the central office (CO). The cards installed in the remotes are the same installed in the CO i.e. same technical limitations. What is important is the distance you are from Bell's equipment; if you live next to the CO you will surely get a higher possible speed than if you live 1 Km from the remote.

I am still hoping for opinions on Bell's legal obligation to provide " highest possible quality of service"
 
#15 ·
I believe it was CBC's Marketplace that did a survey on what Bell customers actually received with Bell DSL.
Was that the show where they compared ISPs? As I recall, Bell came in last, with Rogers first and Telus second. Bell was so bad that one of the tests didn't even finish.
 
#16 ·
Just a FYI, I used to be on Bell Sympatico DSL from back in the day, Their original Sympatico DSL lines were fed from the Central Office, so yeah the speed was not that great, I would get 5 Megabits per second on average. I eventually left bell for a few years, but got a lot of flyers and promotions in my mail telling me about their "fibe" packages, and eventually I signed up again, but this time I was told by the technician my house was connected to the "Stinger" node on my street, and since it was closer to my house, it has better speed profiles than the original sympatico central office based technology had. When I first signed up I tried their 15mbps package, then needed more speed and went to 25, and eventually settling on 50mbps. So far what I can tell you from my personal experience, the speed has always been consistant for me. The tech can check your line's attainable speed and it is usually rated for much higher (incase you order their TV service), which means you will always get the guarenteed download speed, maybe not always the case for upload, but in my case I am getting 50/10, I have never hit less than that in speed tests and its been flawless, waaaay better than the old central officed based Digital Subscriber Line I started with years ago.
 
#17 ·
That was the one. It's a bit dated now but that pretty much sums it up. On one occasion reconfigured the line for 6Mbps but it had to be set back to 5Mbps due to sync issues. I never got more than was advertised with DSL and had problems with Netflix.

I switched to Rogers and they generally deliver 10-20% over rated download speed, even during evening peak load times. They offer 1Gb internet here but the current plan is nowhere near that. Not that Rogers is perfect. I found DSL to be a little more reliable overall but 5Mbps just doesn't come close to meeting my needs these days.
 
#18 ·
which means you will always get the guarenteed download speed, maybe not always the case for upload, but in my case I am getting 50/10, I have never hit less than that in speed tests and its been flawless, waaaay better than the old central officed based Digital Subscriber Line I started with years ago.
I'm on Rogers with a 60/10 package. I frequently try speedtest.net and almost always get mid 70s down and about 11 up. I have seen significantly better and rarely a bit less. I don't ever recall getting less than what I paid for.
 
#20 ·
The difference with FTTN is that DSL2 is used which has speeds up to 50Mbps per line. They may use bonded pairs for speeds up to 100Mbps. Distance is much more critical with DSL2 due to the higher speeds. Lines going back to the CO are most likely using the original ADSL equipment which has a maximum speed of 10Mbps. ADSL supports bonded pairs but Bell doesn't use it. I've heard of TPIAs using bonded pairs with ADSL.

I don't see limiting speeds to 6Mbps with HSE as fraudulent. They've done much worse than that to HSE customers in the past. If they advertise 6Mbps and deliver 6Mbps that's all they need to do. I've heard of other providers delivering 7Mbps or higher with ADSL but, again, it depends on line conditions and provisioning. As I said, they can deliver less than that due to the "up to" condition in the fine print.

The best option is to switch to another ISP. You don't need nor should you call Bell to cancel. Just call the other provider, tell them what you want, provide the details of the current service and they will cancel on your behalf. That provides minimal disruption of service since the switch over will be better coordinated.
 
#22 ·
For those who are interested in the technical side: here are photos and diagrams. They show the JWI's (Jumper Wire Interface) which contain the in-pairs direct from CO, the x-connections to the out-pairs to the clients, photos of the stingers bolted onto the JWI, photos of standalone stinger (on a pedestal, not bolted to the JWI), the inside of the stinger showing 3 cards which handles a max of 48 clients each, the power supply at bottom which converts the +190 and -190 volts (380 volts total) fed by ordinary cable pairs from the CO, fiber patch cords and laser interface card, cable pair protection also known as heat coils, they do not show other types of remotes which handle high speeds, they do not show the POTS remotes nor the remotes which handle both POTS and high speed service.

ADSL2+ DSL Remote Concentrator

New JWI's are installed all the time, when competition entered the market JWI's were installed often in the yard of the CO which I thought was ridiculous at the time but was told it was necessary for the competition. New JWI's mean new cables, and all cables specially the oldest air pressurised paper insulated cables are replaced as needed. The equipment in the CO is constantly being upgraded and replaced always ahead of upgrades in the field, there is simply no advantage to being next to a remote vs. being next to the CO. The CO is located in the business section of town or in the densest population sections of town, it makes financial sense to always upgrade there first. When newer equipment is installed permitting higher speeds, clients are transferred to the newer equipment and the old equipment is sold. If/when clients want to increase their speeds all it takes is to tweak the speed limiting software; all this reduces Bell's operating costs. It is all about the financial bottom line.
Even though various sources would like to define DSL and other similar terms as they see fit, these terms are defined internationally by agreed upon standards. For example DSL refers to a family of technologies (ADSL, ADSL2, HDSL, VDSL,ETC). ADSL2 has the international standard ITU G.992.3, HDSL is a T1 line on cable pair (1.544 Mbits in both directions) etc. A quick wikipedia search would confirm.

Back on topic:
I remember way back, I was limited to 3 Mbits (it may have been lower initially but I am uncertain of my memory) and one day it was suddenly increased to 6 Mbits, no notice, nothing, came as a complete pleasant surprise, and this change was NOT after hardware upgrades in the CO, it was solely from their speed limiting software. This speed increase can be explained by the terms of the "Sympatico High Speed Edition service and hardware leasing agreement" quoted in a previous post in this thread. As I understand that quote, Bell will always give the best possible speeds and any limitations (software or rented modem) is contrary to the agreement.

BTW, the agreement does not mention technology used, no mention of DSL or any xDSL, it does not mention any possibility of speed limits, it does not mention "subject to change" in the performance levels section. The agreement refers only to their high speed service.

I do believe Bell may have shot itself in the foot with their agreement and no easy way out other than abusing their clients.
So yeah, after some 15 years of limits, I am quite upset and would participate in a class action lawsuit.

The process of changing ISP's has begun by notifying 20 years of accumulated email contacts of change of address. (sympatico was my main email account)
 
#24 ·
For those who are interested in the technical side: here are photos and diagrams.
ADSL2+ DSL Remote Concentrator
:cool: Holy crap, that's the best resource I've ever seen for a comprehensive technical guide to real-world outside plant telecom/cableco infrastructure. If you go to the homepage, that Mitchell Shnier fellow has ten different sections, covering all typical Bell and Rogers infrastructure in Ontario. Awesome stuff! Thanks for sharing!

I remember way back, I was limited to 3 Mbits (it may have been lower initially but I am uncertain of my memory) and one day it was suddenly increased to 6 Mbits, no notice, nothing, came as a complete pleasant surprise, and this change was NOT after hardware upgrades in the CO, it was solely from their speed limiting software.
That happened to me, too. First, it went from 1.5Mbps to 3Mbps in January 2004, then (can't remember when) from 3Mbps to 7Mbps. This was years before they ever started branding stuff "Fibe". Truly shocking to think that Bell ever, in their history, gave customers an unsolicited speed profile increase without jacking up rates at the same time. Of course, the rate hikes always came, just not coincident with anything that customers could understand.

The process of changing ISP's has begun by notifying 20 years of accumulated email contacts of change of address. (sympatico was my main email account)
Yup: me, too. Twenty-two years, for me. Mostly done. I'm aiming to phone BHell to cancel, tomorrow. My plan is to be very monotone, and not to give them any reason why I'm through with them; they don't deserve to know. They'll probably try to upsell me on some other crap, but I've completely lost confidence in Bell such that I don't believe anything that they tell customers. If they told me I'd won free Internet service for life, I'd tell them to go to hell because they can't be trusted, anymore. TPIA is far, far better.
 
#23 ·
I stopped using ISP email accounts years ago after I found out that Bell and Rogers cancel all email accounts without warning when the internet service is cancelled. That's just plain rude and unprofessional. Interestingly, TSI did not. After a short time, they cancelled the ability to send email but email sent to the accounts was still received using POP or IMAP.

I'd recommend using an independent email service. Privacy can be an issue since companies like Google scan email. Any non-Canadian service is not subject to Canadian privacy laws so you may want to take that into consideration. Assume anything that goes through a US server can and will be scanned by several US law enforcement agencies. They are not allowed to spy on US citizens but Canadians have no privacy rights in the US. A Canadian or EU service (that has no US servers) may be better. If privacy is really important, use a paid service that guaranties it.
 
#26 ·
New JWI's are installed all the time, when competition entered the market JWI's were installed often in the yard of the CO which I thought was ridiculous at the time but was told it was necessary for the competition.
I have often been into Bell office, on behalf of the competition and have never been near a JWI. I'd be working in the competition's co-location site, generally a cage within the Bell office.
 
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