Interpeting NEC results - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-20, 02:45 AM Thread Starter
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Interpeting NEC results

Hey folks, I am back again with more questions.


I am hoping to find out how to interpret nec results of Raw, Net, SWR, BeamW, F/R, F/B, Real, Imag, AGT, & corr.


Which ones have the most impact on the antenna results?


From my reading on this site, I am assuming the most advantageous things to look for are: higher Net , Lower SWR, higher BeamW, the rest I am not sure about.


Should the other readings be higher or lower for best results?


Which categories impact the results from the most to the least?


Is a lowest net gain of 9.5 @ 470 MHz - 698 MHz & higher in between those frequencies considerered a good 4 bay bow antenna?

I am hoping to build a 4 bay bowtie antenna without a reflector to get the most channels from the front and back of the antenna.

The lowest net gain I mentioned above is the lowest net gain, the frequencies in the middle of that range would be a net gain of about 12 or so.

Last edited by jandrcbrt; 2017-11-20 at 03:03 AM. Reason: Forgot a few details
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-20, 09:43 AM
 
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What finally matters is only CINR (SNR) ratio at demodulator.

In general, television is free of interferences (in-band or neighbour band higher than IP3 dynamic block range).
Also, in OTA, environment noise temperature is highest at desired location, so beam pattern do not influence antenna noise temperature (it matters a lot for antennas directed into sky)

If your task is only to catch fringe signal, only dBi & SWR matters. Two very differennt antennas should perform identically - voltmeter will show the same signal and demodulator will show the same SNR.

When RF is directly attached to antenna (not count loss and impedance transformation in cable), influence of SWR is counted as degradation of RX noise factor:

Nf (effective) = Nf (nominal) + 10*log((2+SWR+1/SWR)/4)

SWR=2 and SWR=3 is equal to degradation of LNA noise factor by 0.5 and 1.25 dB respectively.

2 antennas, 10 dBi & SWR=1 vs 11.25 dBi & SWR=3 will show the same signal strength when connected to voltmeter or LNA directly (zero-length coax cable).

Non-zero length mismatched line acts as impedance transformator. When its length is proportional to 1/2 lambda (0.5, 1.0, 1.5 ...) it has no effect on TR-ratio.
When its length is shifted by 1/4 lambda (0.25, 0.75, 1.25, 1.75) than it has maximum possible transformation ratio.

By the time signal reaches RX input, SWR can be different and it depends on combination of Z=R+jX.

Here is my Excel version of TR-line calculator: https://goo.gl/w8z9U2

Assume we have antenna Z=150+j0 (SWR=2 at Z=75+j0 load).
At length proportional to 1/2 lambda (0, 0.5, 1.0) no influence, SWR=2 at tuner input feed.
At length proportional to 1/4 lambda (0.25, 0.75, 1.25) it acts as 4:1 transformer, Z=37.5+j0 (SWR=2 at Z=75+j0 load).

Assume we have antenna Z=37.5+j0 (SWR=2 at Z=75+j0 load).
At length proportional to 1/2 lambda (0, 0.5, 1.0) no influence, SWR=2 at tuner input feed.
At length proportional to 1/4 lambda (0.25, 0.75, 1.25) it acts as 1:4 transformer, Z=150+j0 (SWR=2 at Z=75+j0 load).

So at any coax length, SWR will be always <SWR@input for resonant antenna (when im=X=0).
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-20, 09:57 AM
 
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In rare occasions and while DX-ing, one need to combat strong local signals.
F/B, F/R, beam pattern, nulls in beam pattern - matter. Or narrowband antenna (by design, or using narrowband baluns, e.g. 1/2 coax balun instead of ferrite balun)
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-20, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you Yurii for your responses.


Is there an English version of all of that? Sorry, I didn't understand nearly everything you posted, way over my head, and that is my ignorance, no fault of you.
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-20, 11:02 PM Thread Starter
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The following is an example of a NEC initial test run result I have received thus far for a 4 bay bow tie no reflector antenna, if that helps answering my original question.


Code:
  --- Gain ---   -- Ratios -- -- Impedance --           
   Freq  Raw Net SWR BeamW F/R F/B Real Imag AGT corr
==========================================================================
   54.0  -4.54 -31.47 1968.25 91.5 0.00 0.00 0.17 -98.99 1.18 0.71
   60.0  -5.11 -31.59 1776.72 91.6 0.00 0.00 0.18 -71.72 1.18 0.71
   66.0  -6.23 -32.45 1670.96 91.9 0.00 0.00 0.18 -47.34 1.18 0.71
   72.0  -9.01 -35.11 1628.89 92.7 0.00 0.00 0.19 -24.96 1.34 1.29
   78.0  -14.18 -40.28 1627.80 95.7 -0.04 0.00 0.18 -3.90 1.34 1.29
   84.0  -26.83 -52.91 1621.00 62.5 -1.97 0.00 0.19 16.36 1.34 1.29
   90.0  -8.58 -34.35 1510.12 85.0 -0.02 0.00 0.20 36.31 1.34 1.29
  174.0  3.58 2.86 2.29 83.4 0.00 0.00 145.49 89.30 1.02 0.08
  180.0  3.56 2.52 2.72 82.9 0.00 0.00 128.34 111.81 1.02 0.08
  186.0  3.54 2.24 3.08 82.3 0.00 0.00 119.60 133.42 1.02 0.08
  192.0  3.52 2.02 3.35 81.7 0.00 0.00 116.10 153.94 1.02 0.08
  198.0  3.47 1.84 3.55 81.1 0.00 0.00 116.28 173.55 1.02 0.11
  204.0  3.44 1.72 3.67 80.6 0.00 0.00 119.36 192.50 1.02 0.11
  210.0  3.41 1.65 3.74 80.0 0.00 0.00 124.98 210.93 1.02 0.11
  216.0  3.38 1.61 3.74 79.2 0.00 0.00 133.04 228.91 1.02 0.11
  470.0  10.18 9.69 1.97 53.6 0.00 0.00 395.40 -217.76 0.98 -0.09
  476.0  10.31 9.90 1.85 52.7 0.00 0.00 357.54 -196.17 0.98 -0.09
  482.0  10.44 10.11 1.74 51.9 0.00 0.00 326.77 -173.15 0.98 -0.09
  488.0  10.56 10.30 1.64 51.1 0.00 0.00 301.87 -149.58 0.98 -0.09
  494.0  10.68 10.47 1.54 50.3 0.00 0.00 281.87 -125.96 0.98 -0.08
  500.0  10.80 10.64 1.46 49.5 0.00 0.00 266.02 -102.56 0.98 -0.08
  506.0  10.92 10.80 1.39 48.6 0.00 0.00 253.73 -79.50 0.98 -0.08
  512.0  11.04 10.94 1.34 47.7 0.00 0.00 244.57 -56.81 0.98 -0.08
  518.0  11.16 11.08 1.30 46.8 0.00 0.00 238.26 -34.47 0.98 -0.08
  524.0  11.27 11.20 1.28 46.0 0.00 0.00 234.60 -12.44 0.98 -0.07
  530.0  11.38 11.31 1.29 45.3 0.00 0.00 233.54 9.35 0.98 -0.07
  536.0  11.50 11.42 1.31 44.5 0.00 0.00 235.12 30.92 0.98 -0.07
  542.0  11.61 11.51 1.35 43.8 0.00 0.00 239.46 52.33 0.98 -0.07
  548.0  11.72 11.60 1.39 43.1 0.00 0.00 246.84 73.54 0.98 -0.07
  554.0  11.83 11.68 1.45 42.5 0.00 0.00 257.68 94.45 0.98 -0.07
  560.0  11.94 11.76 1.51 41.8 0.00 0.00 272.52 114.82 0.98 -0.07
  566.0  12.05 11.83 1.57 41.2 0.00 0.00 292.13 134.20 0.98 -0.07
  572.0  12.15 11.89 1.63 40.6 0.00 0.00 317.45 151.75 0.98 -0.07
  578.0  12.25 11.95 1.70 40.1 0.00 0.00 349.57 166.02 0.98 -0.07
  584.0  12.34 12.00 1.76 39.4 0.00 0.00 389.51 174.61 0.98 -0.07
  590.0  12.43 12.05 1.83 38.7 0.00 0.00 437.75 173.74 0.98 -0.07
  596.0  12.52 12.09 1.89 38.0 0.00 0.00 493.10 157.97 0.98 -0.07
  602.0  12.60 12.12 1.96 37.5 0.00 0.00 550.74 120.71 0.98 -0.07
  608.0  12.67 12.14 2.02 36.9 0.00 0.00 600.15 57.00 0.98 -0.07
* 614.0  12.75 12.18 2.09 36.3 0.00 0.00 625.71 -30.92 0.98 -0.09
  620.0  12.80 12.17 2.16 35.8 0.00 0.00 613.75 -128.78 0.98 -0.09
  626.0  12.84 12.16 2.23 35.3 0.00 0.00 563.26 -214.43 0.98 -0.09
  632.0  12.86 12.12 2.31 34.8 0.00 0.00 488.23 -270.94 0.98 -0.09
  638.0  12.86 12.07 2.39 34.4 0.00 0.00 407.62 -295.10 0.98 -0.09
  644.0  12.87 12.02 2.47 33.9 0.00 0.00 334.76 -293.95 0.97 -0.12
  650.0  12.81 11.90 2.55 33.5 0.00 0.00 275.08 -277.13 0.97 -0.12
  656.0  12.72 11.75 2.62 33.0  0.00 0.00 228.96 -252.36 0.97 -0.12
  662.0  12.58 11.56 2.68 32.5 0.00 0.00 194.46 -224.77 0.97 -0.12
  668.0  12.40 11.34 2.74 31.9 0.00 0.00 169.25 -197.36 0.97 -0.12
  674.0  12.10 11.01 2.78 31.3 0.00 0.00 150.96 -171.89 0.99 -0.05
  680.0  11.84 10.71 2.83 30.6 0.00 0.00 137.40 -149.21 0.99 -0.05
  686.0  11.57 10.40 2.89 29.6 0.00 0.00 126.52 -129.45 0.99 -0.05
  692.0  11.31 10.07 2.98 28.3 0.00 0.00 116.63 -111.85 0.99 -0.05
  698.0  11.07 9.73 3.12 27.2 0.00 0.00 106.99 -95.10 0.99 -0.05
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-21, 05:18 AM
 
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In simple terms: only Net Gain matters.
Net Gain = RawGain - SWR-related losses (so it includes SWR).
------------------------

In very rare cases, when receiption of weaker signal is blocked by stronger signals from different tower, you might want to carefully select radiation pattern to reduce signal from undesired direction.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-21, 05:38 AM
 
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https://ypylypenko.livejournal.com/8690.html <-- FF4_noR_28Jul2017 HFSS simulation (and comparison with NEC2, gain curve is identical)
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-21, 07:16 PM
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I disagree....RAW GAIN is more important than NET GAIN for the fol. reason:

SWR "Mismatch" occurs when Complex LOAD Impedance (NOT exactly 75-ohms, Resistive) is NOT exactly equal to Complex SOURCE Impedance...which for most Antennas is very Irregular]. This results in some of the Energy received by the Antenna being Reflected BACK from the LOAD (e.g. Preamp Input or Tuner Input if NO Preamp) to the Antenna, where SOME is Reflected BACK towards the LOAD...except with a DELAY of twice the Electrical Cable Length [Electrical Length is a bit LONGER due to slower Propagation "Velocity Factor"]. Esp. see "The Importance of Timing":
Formation of Standing Waves
https://physics.info/waves-standing

If you were to monitor the VOLTAGE along the length of the Cable, on any particular Frequency, you would find that it jumps around. IF and ONLY IF Electrical Length is an Integer Multiple of 1/2-Wavelength, will you see "Standing Waves" every 1/2-Wavelength along the Cable, as the PHASE of the Reflected Wave is the OPPOSITE of the Incoming Wave and hence results in Maximum Cancellation.....and at any OTHER Phase Relationship (NOT 1/2-Integer Multiple) is RANDOM. The full extent of the "Mismatch Loss" [the Maximum] is ONLY experienced at the END OF THE CABLE under these UNIQUE conditions....and NOT on most other Frequencies, when Electrical Length is usually NOT an integer multiple. Hence my recommendation to try ADDING random lengths of spare cables to the end of your Downlead trying to MOVE the Standing Wave to A DIFFERENT, hopefully not used, Frequency.

Hence, NET GAIN is ONLY Measurable at the END of the Downlead (or END of Coax between Antenna and Preamp)....and ONLY WHEN Electrical Length is an Integer Multiple of 1/2-Wavelength at ONE (or TWO) Frequencies. Otherwise, the Reflected Signals do NOT form Standing Waves, instead experiencing random fluctuations of Constructive and Destructive Interference...resulting in much lower amount of Mismatch Loss.

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands
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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-21, 07:47 PM
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Raw Gain, SWR (actually Mismatch-Loss in dB), F/R Ratio, F/B Ratio and Beamwidth can ALL be important....or just Raw Gain....or just Beamwidth....depending on your APPLICATION/SITUATION.

In downtown NYC, stations are coming in from MANY Directions, which makes Antenna Choice very problematic. You would think that a TRUE OMNI Antenna would be the "Best" with a Beamwidth of [hopefully] 360-deg, but there are very few available (esp for INDOORS). The Bi-Directional Hi-VHF-Rabbit-Ear/UHF-Loop [abt 60+ deg Forward and 60+ deg Rear Beamwidth] may also be a viable choice, but it (and the OMNI) also lets in LOTS of MULTIPATH Interference. Hence, a "Better" alternative MAY be a DIRECTIONAL UHF Antenna, such as Terk HDTVi/a....if you are successful in receiving stations off the "Back" of the Antenna.
https://imageevent.com/holl_ands/omni [TRUE OMNI's with GOOD Specs are NOT Small]

In other locations, stations might be at different ranges with different angles of arrival. So you MIGHT need a fairly WIDE Beamwidth Antenna (A-D C2 has highest BW=70-deg across entire UHF Band, with resultant Low Gain) or a significantly higher Gain 4-Bay (typ. 60 to 50-deg BW, lower on upper UHF Channels)....or TWO Separate Antenna with or without Channel Filters.

OTOH, you may need a narrow Beamwidth Antenna (e.g. 30-40 deg) in order to suppress STRONG Local stations in order to receive weaker, distant stations that are not quite in the same direction....and in extreme cases two Antennas with one of the Baluns REVERSED so that it is Out-Of-Phase can be used to steer a NULL towards one station, while receiving a desired station on one of the two BEAMS formed on either side of the NULL.

F/R Ratio is typically cited in mfr specs, being the Ratio (in dB) between Gain Directly FORWARD (0-deg at Max Gain Azimuth) and Gain Directly to REAR (180-deg). However, F/B Ratio is much more meaningful, being the Ratio (in dB) between Gain Directly FORWARD (0-deg at Max Gain Azimuth) and Gain towards the ENTIRE BACK (I use 90-deg thru 270-deg). [PS: 4NEC2, et.al. convention is to use Max Gain at 90-deg!!!!] On some Freqs, some Antennas have a Gain Lobe directly to the Rear and some a Gain NULL with Lobes to either side....F/B Ratio is suited to provide a fair characterization of EITHER, since it is very unlikely that Interference or Multipath Distortion will be limited to EXACTLY 180-deg. Whether you NEED a VERY HIGH F/B Ratio (e.g. 20 dB)....or can get away with a more typical 15 dB....or a measly 10 dB....will depend on your situation wrt Co-Channel, Adjacent Channel, Multipath and Man-Made Noise Sources.

A Mis-Match Loss of 1 dB corresponds to an SWR of about 2.7, which is MY DESIGN GOAL when modeling Antennas...although SWR=3 still isn't TOO bad, with Mis-Match Loss of 1.25 dB....and I worry when SWR=4, which is Mis-Match Loss of about 2 dB:
https://www.microwaves101.com/calcul...swr-calculator

BTW: Dr. Obed Bendov [former Chief Engineer at Dielectric (TX) Antennas] determined that SWR has an ADDITIONAL degradation to DIGITAL Waveform Detection due to the DELAYs between Incident and Reflected (and RE-Reflected, etc) signals traveling up and down a LONG Coax (NOT a problem with short Coax to Preamp) acting as Short-Delay Type Multipath, which Adaptive Equalizer is NOT designed to overcome. So one more reason to try to keep SWR no higher than 2.7 or so.

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands
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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-22, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
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Wow! My head is spinning. Ty so much holl_ands & Yurii for the responses.


So I guess I will look more closely to higher Raw Gain, SWR lower than 2.7, Beam width, & F/B.


SWR= 2.7 = ~1 dBi loss
SWR = 4 = ~ 2 dBi loss


The antenna I will eventually build is for 'country' use that has multiple '2 edge' tvfool stations. So I assume I would welcome a large beam width. Should the F/B be higher or lower for distant stations?


Thank you so much!
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-23, 03:29 AM
 
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F/B and F/R is needed for 2 reasons:
1) combat multi-path reflections (in analogue TV it was seen as washy picture shifted by some delay, in digital it decrease SNR, since this signal is noise for demodulator)
2) reject strong signal from rear direction (both in-band and side-band)

Even small F/B is enough in most cases. Only zero F/B (2-directional, reflector-less designs) are not good choice.

Zero F/B antenna is not convenient for another reason: it is very hard to provide clear space for reflector-less type of antennas.
Reflector shield backward radiation from any conductive surfaces: walls, cables, mast.
You can hang screen-type antenna close to wall, but cannot do this with reflector-less antenna.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-27, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jandrcbrt View Post
The antenna I will eventually build is for 'country' use that has multiple '2 edge' tvfool stations. So I assume I would welcome a large beam width. Should the F/B be higher or lower for distant stations?
In the "country" with 2Edge Signals likely means you need a HIGH Gain Antenna....and since Forward Gain is the Numerator in F/B and F/R Ratio formulas, you will also likely end up with an Antenna that ALSO has medium or better F/B and F/R Ratios.....which is a GOOD Thing to suppress the strong Multipath components , mostly coming in from the sides and rear.

We could provide more specific comments, esp. re unusual local conditions, if you can provide a Link to your TVFool Results......

Antenna Simulations, Overload Calculations, etc: http://imageevent.com/holl_ands
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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-27, 11:26 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you again for your response holl_ands!


In the country is exactly what my antenna build, for that location will be facing. Pretty much everything is '2 edge', or worse on the tvfool report. I do know that back in the day of analog tv, an antenna, at that location,did receive many stations.


I was hoping to build a reflector less antenna with high gain in both the front and rear directions, I would welcome any suggestions.


I was hoping for at least a 30 degree beam width to the front and the rear.


Code:
 29 - 44 degrees - midpoint = 36 degrees
 ---------------
WSTQ-LP CW(14)  RF 14 37 deg  -123.7 dBm -121.14 Doubtful Reception
 CW 6
WSPX ION(56)  RF 15 29 deg    -108.94?
 ION
 qubo
 IONLife
WSYR ABC(9)  RF 17 44 deg  -87/91.9 dBm -89.03 ?
 ABC 9
 ME-TV
 Bounce TV
 Laff
WSYT FOX(68)  RF 19 33 deg  -62 dBm  -67.16
 Fox 68
 Cozi Tv
WSTM NBC(3)  RF 24 37 deg  -81 dBm  -83.63
 NBC 3
 CW 6
 Comet TV (3 Weather Plus)
WCNY PBS(24)  RF 25 37 deg  -85 dBm  -87.23
 PBS
 Create
 PBS Encore
 PBS Kids 24/7
WNYS MYTV(43) RF 44 33 deg  -65 dBm  -71.96
 MyTV
 GetTV
WTVH CBS(5)  RF 47 37 deg  -88 dBm  -89.69 ?
 CBS 5
 Charge!
 TBD
 
 Back side desired Channels

 232 - 245 degrees
 -----------------
WETM NBC(18)  RF 18 232 deg  -79 dBm
 NBC 18
 Independent
 Laff
 Escape
WSKA PBS(30)  RF 30 244 deg  -90 dBm
 PBS
 World Channel
 Create
 Audio - WSKG-FM
 Audio - WSQX-FM
 PBS Kids 24/7
WENY ABC(36)  RF 36 245 deg  -86 dBm  -96.90
 ABC
 CBS
 CW+ 2
WYDC FOX(48)  RF 48 244 deg  -97 dBm
 Fox
 My TV
 Comet TV

TVFOOL Report:
Code:
TV Fool


I am assuming a very high powered preamp would not be frowned upon.
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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-28, 02:51 AM
 
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Quote:
I am assuming a very high powered preamp would not be frowned upon.
When LNA gain is 10+ dB, than noise factor of whole receiver = LNA Nf.

One might need more than 10 dB if cable is really long and has splitters for many TV sets

SNR gain from preamp = LNA Nf - Tuner Nf + Cable loss.

Look for Nf, not gain.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 2017-11-28, 09:22 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you Yurii for your response.


When you said to look for Nf. Are you referring to the Preamp? I was pondering getting the RCA TVPRAMP1R.


Quote from Amazon customer ...
Quote:
A technician @ Antennas Direct who goes by “ADTech” on the digital home web site had previously characterized this model around Christmas time and shared what he found on that forum. He has access to some pretty impressive HP test equipment for characterizing preamps. including an HP8569B Spectrum Analyzer & an HP 8970A Noise Figure Meter.


Here is what he found for the RCA TVPRAMP1R:
Low VHF - 3.9 dB NF/16 dB gain
High VHF - 3.1 dB NF/16.2 dB gain
UHF - 2.6 dB NF/23.7 dB gain

There is a RCA TVPRAMP1Z also that sounds like it is pretty much the same.
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