ON - City of Toronto Metro Area <OUTDOOR Antennas Only> - OTA - Page 206 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

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post #3076 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-05, 05:59 PM
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Try manually entering rf 43.1.WNED is transmitting on RF 43.

Attic CM 4248 at Buffalo,M4 at Buffalo.VHF yagis at Toronto .
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post #3077 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-06, 12:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbw7223 View Post
Recently purchased a new Sony 4k tv, but after 4 - 5 channels scans, it will not pick up PBS Buffalo stations (17-1, 17-2, etc.). My 6 year old Samsung can get PBS just fine; the displayed signal strength on the Samsung (a simple bar graph) indicates about 40 - 50% signal, which is about what I see for all the Buffalo stations.

Can anyone explain why the difference, and what - if anything - can be done to get PBS back.
The most likely explanation is that the Sony tuner isn't as sensitive as the Samsung tuner IF both TVs are getting the same signal strength in your distribution system. It also might not be as resistant to overload. Are you using a preamp?

Another possible explanation is that your local signals are strong enough to cause partial overload that will raise the noise floor and wipe out your weaker signals.

There could be adjacent channel interference from CITY on RF 44.

Your strong local signals and WNED are about 40 degrees apart. Your antenna has a wide beamwidth. If you used an antenna with a more narrow beamwidth, aimed at WNED, your local signals would be weaker in comparison.

Try an outboard tuner for the Sony.

Quote:
A corollary question - my TV fool report never shows WNED at all...

TV Fool

Clearly this is wrong, as I get it OTA on the old tv.
Yes, it is wrong. TVFool is using a new database, datecode 201711011344, that has many errors.

A report from RabbitEars.info shows WNED:



The FCC DTV Maps site shows it:



RabbitEars lists it here:
RabbitEars.Info

And Wiki lists it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WNED-TV

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883

Last edited by rabbit73; 2017-12-06 at 12:57 AM.
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post #3078 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-06, 01:18 PM
 
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qbw7223:
Have you tried entering "17-1" (or "17.1") manually from your "clicker"?

Last edited by MapMaker; 2017-12-06 at 01:25 PM. Reason: addressed to wrong poster and posted before seeing page 206
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post #3079 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-06, 04:28 PM
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My 40" non-smart Sony TV has an option to show or hide channels. Does your 4K Sony have that in the menu?
Home > Settings > Channel > Show/Hide Channels

Allows you to show or hide channels that
appear when you use the CH +/– buttons.
Press UP arrow/DOWN arrow to scroll through the channels until
you find the channel you want to show or
hide. Then press + to select it.
Press UP arrow/DOWN arrow to determine if the channel will be
shown or hidden. Then press + to select it.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #3080 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-07, 06:29 PM
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Rabbit73: Many thanks for your several good suggestions.

I am not using a preamp. The RG6 wire is about 35 - 45 feet, going straight-ish from the roof top DB4E to my tv. Yesterday evening I got the following reception data from my old Samsung vs. new Sony. I recorded signal strength and SNR for four representative stations, again just by changing the antenna cable from one tv to the other.

CBC (5-1): Samsung signal strength = 70%, SNR=26-29, vs. Sony 71%, 30
CTV (9-1): Samsung = 60%, 27, vs. Sony = 61%, 28.
PBS (17-1): Samsung =45%, 23, vs. Sony = 45%, SNR fluctuates between 0 - 12(!).
CITY (57-1): Samsung = 100%(!), 31, vs. Sony = 58%, 29.

As you see, most local (CN tower stations) are pretty consistent between the two sets, but note the wide variances for PBS and CITY. My (naive?) conclusion is that this is due to adjacent channel interference between RF 43 and 44, as you mentioned.

The end result is that all Toronto stations are solid, most Buffalo stations range from non existent to unwatchable (frequent blocky pixels, frozen pictures, etc.). Our requirements are pretty simple; if we had, in priority order, TVO, PBS, CBC, CTV, Global, we would be happy watchers. The rest of our needs can be handled by Netflix or similar.

Your suggestions...
Aiming the antenna more towards Buffalo. Our is at about 145 degrees True, so pretty much straight at Grand Island I believe. But you pointed out that the DB4E has a wide beam; do you know of one that might be better (narrower)? I looked at a few on the SaveAndReplay web site but most do not specify beam width.

Seems to me that a preamp would not resolve this? Wouldn't it just ramp everything up, including the CN tower?

Try an external TV tuner for the Sony.
I admit I did not think of adding a separate tuner for a new $1500 tv. Sounds kind of Rube-Goldberg-ish but what do I know! I was not even sure what they are - a google search showed several, but they all seem oriented more towards adding tv capability to a PC or laptop. If I tried one, I assume the directions would explain how to use it with a tv, bypassing the internal Sony tuner, etc., and maybe explain how to overcome many anticipated objections from my wife... "You bought *what*!? And I have to do *what* to change channels?!".

I have no idea what specs and features I should look for in an external tuner - can you suggest any candidates? If I try one, I will be sure to get it from a place with a liberal return policy.

Apologies for droning on like this, but I do appreciate your suggestions and intend to follow up.
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post #3081 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-07, 10:03 PM
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You should have much higher signal readings.Does your antenna have a clear line of site towards the lake.Can you actually see the CN tower from your antenna location ? The bowtie rods at front facing Buffalo,The screen is in back ?When I lived in your area I had just a indoor 2 bay and WNED was 100% with window facing lake.

Attic CM 4248 at Buffalo,M4 at Buffalo.VHF yagis at Toronto .
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post #3082 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-08, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbw7223 View Post
I am not using a preamp
Good; I just wanted to check to be sure.
Quote:
Seems to me that a preamp would not resolve this? Wouldn't it just ramp everything up, including the CN tower?
Yes, a preamp should not be used with your strong local signals.

Thank you for making the test. The results seem to indicate possible overload. CBC is listed as your strongest signal, but is only 70%, while the weaker CITY is 100% SS. CTV is 60%, but that is to be expected because your antenna doesn't have much gain on VHF.

CBC has a noise Margin of 66.5 dB. If you add the antenna gain of about 12 dB, your NM is then 78.5 dB, which is overload territory.



Interpreting Noise Margin in the TV Fool Report
Chuck's Digital TV Page
Quote:
My (naive?) conclusion is that this is due to adjacent channel interference between RF 43 and 44, as you mentioned.
It is a possible factor, but I think overload is also possible. The below 100% SS reading for CBC is a symptom of overload because of gain compression. I suggest you first try a simple inexpensive test by inserting some attenuation in the coax. This will make all signals weaker, but if you reduce the strength of your strongest signals, they will be less likely to produce IMD (Intermodulation Distortion) which creates spurious signals that will raise the noise floor and damage your weak signals. For every one dB of attenuation, the IMD interference drops 3 dB. A 2-way splitter will give 3dB attenuation; a 4-way, 7 dB. I like to use the Antennas Direct ATT-1 20 dB Variable Attenuator for testing.
https://www.antennasdirect.com/store...ttenuator.html

https://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=att-1



Continued in next post when I have more time.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883

Last edited by rabbit73; 2017-12-08 at 02:24 PM.
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post #3083 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-08, 03:14 PM
 
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gbw7223:

Your Tv fool shows that you have five signals at -24 or more. Trying to get weaker Buffalo stations is like trying to see the planet Mercury beside the sun.(paraphrasing majortom) Ironically. I faced the same problem from Buffalo while trying to nail down CN Tower stations. Rabbit 73 and majortom helped me greatly understand the problem and try different solutions. I did have some success with a variable attenuator and with an external tuner, but for me , the solution was to get a custom made filter to cool down the hot signals. IMHO you would be wise to add a Jan Jenca filter ($80) for channels 19, 20 and 25. Global 41 and Cfto 9 will be changing frequencies in less than two years so filtering their current frequencies would be a waste. The filter would mean that you would not need another tuner, your Sony tv would no longer be overloaded. I do know however where you could get a used tuner to try that someone doesn't need to use anymore.... Send me a PM
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post #3084 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-08, 04:02 PM
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gbw7223:

If the attenuator doesn't work, you can try an antenna with a more narrow beamwidth than the DB4e. An 8-bay antenna has a more narrow beamwidth, but it has secondary lobes about 40 degrees each side of the main lobe. I think a UHF yagi like the 91XG or the less expensive HDB91X clone would have a more suitable pattern to make your local strong signals weaker.



Adding an external tuner that has HDMI output, like the CM7002, to the Sony would be a last resort.
Channel Master 7002 CM7002, Replacement of CM7001HD and CM7003 convertor box for digital free HDTV reception, OTA,Over the Air FREE HDTV Cut the cord - SaveAndReplay Toronto GTA Mississauga Canada

I have a 7003, but it is discontinued. It has a good tuner, but the remote control is slow to respond. I added a learning remote control (Sony RMVLZ620 Universal Remote) that works better.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #3085 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-09, 12:22 AM
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rob50312:

The antenna is aimed correctly - about 145 degrees True, which should be pretty much at Grand Island. From my roof top, the lake is not visible, but CN tower is. Some obstacles:
- some tall, mature trees further to my south and west,
- my neighbour's house to my immediate south is fairly large. My antenna is on an extender pole so it (just) clears his roof top. As noted previously, this does not interfere with Buffalo reception on the old Samsung,
- about 100 meters to my south east, there is some sort of Bell switching station, three stories high with a serious looking bunch of antennas on a mast perhaps 50 feet above ground. Not sure what it is - microwaves, cell tower or something. As luck would have it, it is almost directly between me and the CN tower, maybe 5 - 10 degrees separate the two from my vantage point. But it certainly has not affected my reception of channels coming from CN tower, on either the old or new tv sets.

I appreciate your input - interesting that you got far better performance from your indoor antenna. When you lived in this area I assume you were probably closer to the lake, perhaps your window had a clear sight line to the water? I am just south of Dundas so about 3 km from Humber Bay.

Regards.
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post #3086 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-09, 08:03 PM
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gbw7223:

You also have some very strong local FM transmitters that are 10 dB stronger than your strongest TV transmitters. It is possible that they are contributing to tuner overload:
http://www.fmfool.com/modeling/tmp/7...a/Radar-FM.png

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #3087 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-10, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbw7223 View Post
Recently purchased a new Sony 4k tv, but after 4 - 5 channels scans, it will not pick up PBS Buffalo stations (17-1, 17-2, etc.). My 6 year old Samsung can get PBS just fine; the displayed signal strength on the Samsung (a simple bar graph) indicates about 40 - 50% signal, which is about what I see for all the Buffalo stations.
Please tell me the model number of your new Sony 4K TV. There is a member of another forum that had a similar problem:
Quote:
Edward (Albany), NY: Help with OTA Reception
We have a Sony 65 XBR-Z9D that we attempted to setup for OTA reception; we have a ChannelMaster, 100 mile + range 7 element antenna with the uhf on the back end, roof mounted 30ft AGL. The run of RG6 quad is 40-45 feet. There is a pre-amp mounted on the antenna. I ran a map @ TVFool and with our location it showed we should receive 30+channels with the rooftop antenna; without the preamp( an old Radio Shack High Gain Signal Amplifier) connected we received 14 channels; with the preamp 17channels; most of them multiple PBS's.

The OTA reception has never been a problem with our LG OLED or with our 52 inch Samsung. We have rec'd 30+ channels with both of those sets. The best part of all this is that we decided to test this setup yesterday with a Toshiba 23 inch TV and received all the channels we need incl all the networks to the tune of 46 channels, so we know the channels are available to us. This is the exact same setup that we used yesterday on the Z9D and we only received 17 channels. 46 channels on a 23"; switch to a 65" and get 17 ?? I don't get it !

Does someone have a recommendation as to how we can receive the channels we know are out there. I certainly hope for the money we spent for the Sony it's not a crappy tuner. TIA
In his next post he discovered what was causing the problem:
Quote:
We figured out the issues. It was with the Sony menu that was not clear to us about the scanning procedure. We now have our 40+ channels.
I asked him for the details; this was his reply:
Quote:
First of all, we were using the wrong settings menu. Secondly, settings menu read "cable/antenna" and then we chose auto program which is what the Sony manual said we should do; that brought us to another menu that started the "cable/antenna" scan. That's what it did and we got the limited number of channels. What we didn't realize is that you can select the cable/antenna menu and choose either cable or antenna separately. We did the RTFM, but the manual did not elaborate.

The solution was so simple; we clicked on antenna only and we got the 40+ channels after the scanning was completed.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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Last edited by rabbit73; 2017-12-10 at 12:30 PM.
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post #3088 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-12, 12:28 PM
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Rabbit73: Just now saw your note from mid-day on Monday.

My new sony is XBR55x900E, a 2017 model.
At first I made the same mistake as the fellow in your quoted portion, i.e., scanned with it set to "cable", and got only 5 channels found. I soon corrected that blunder but results are still not acceptable. When I first hooked up the Sony last week, I got ~25 channels (after correctly choosing "antenna" scan). By Saturday, a full scan was getting me only 15 channels, and the latest scan ~5pm yesterday found only 10 channels, i.e., only Canadian (CN tower) sources. Maybe yesterday's snow flurries a factor?

BTW, I did get a ATT-1 variable attenuator on Saturday, but it did not improve things. On a low setting it made almost no difference, and turning it up only caused all signals to weaken; Buffalo stations disappeared completely and left only CN tower. Yesterday's scan (yielding 10 channels) was done with the attenuator removed.

Throughout the whole sad exercise, the old Samsung (50" plasma PN50C550G1F, a non-smart 2010 model) has continued to pull in over two dozen OTA channels, under exact same conditions. I will soon be getting rid of it however, because of other issues - permanent vertical pinstripe bars on the screen, gradually increasing in number.

I am wondering about maybe getting a digital pvr - either Homeworx 150 or CM DVR+ - and running the antenna into that, then feeding the signal to Sony. Maybe one or both of those has a better built-in tuner? I was intending to get an OTA recorder anyway, once I got the antenna reception sorted out. I would probably first try the Homeworx - at about one quarter or less the price of CM - and return it if no improvement. Neither unit seems particularly impressive when I read reviews of reliability and longevity, so it would be ironic if their tuner outperforms the Sony.

Now that winter is here, a different antenna or other rooftop solutions are out of the question so my options are limited to what can be tried at ground level.
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post #3089 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-12, 01:59 PM
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Thank you for making the test; it was worth try.
Quote:
Now that winter is here, a different antenna or other rooftop solutions are out of the question so my options are limited to what can be tried at ground level.
Yes, I understand.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #3090 of 3095 (permalink) Old 2017-12-12, 07:20 PM
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All things point to Sony.Is the Sony close to Wifi or CFL bulb causing interference for Sony.Bad antenna connection terminal.Why would the Sony have such a poor performance ?Too much multipath signal for the Sony ?

Attic CM 4248 at Buffalo,M4 at Buffalo.VHF yagis at Toronto .
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