ON - Kanata, Barrhaven, Nepean, West of Greenbelt - OTA - Page 113 - Canadian TV, Computing and Home Theatre Forums

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post #1681 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-18, 10:47 AM
 
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You certainly not in the ideal location for OTA reception!

Firstly, to get your TVFool report for the exact location of your house, use the 'Online TV Maps' feature in the left-hand column of the TVFool home page. Enter your postcode, and in the map that appears, drag the marker icon to your exact location (switching the map to satellite view with the button in the top-left corner of the map will help you pinpoint your home). Select the correct height-above-ground of the antenna just below the bottom centre of the map, and then the results will be displayed below the map. You can see the directions of the transmitters if you click in the 'Show lines pointing to each transmitter' check box below the map. To produce the familiar 'radar plot', click on the 'Make Radar Plot' button to the top-right of the map. In terrain like in your area, it's very important to give TVFool the exact location, as signal levels can vary significantly within a small distance. For example, if you enter your latitude and longitude to the precision shown in your report, the signal strenghts are quite different from those in your report. Also, be aware that TVFool does not take account of trees or buildings surrounding your antenna, which can diminish signal levels somewhat.

I think you have a good chance of picking up most of the Ottawa stations coming from Camp Fortune (those at bearing 108 in the TVFool report) with you existing equipment, except for CJOH on channel 13. This because your antenna is a UHF band-only design; most of the Ottawa stations are on UHF, except for CJOH which is on VHF-Hi. To get that, you would need a separate VHF-Hi antenna, joined with the 4228 with something known as a UVSJ. VHF-Hi antennas are difficult to find these days, but there is still one available from a US supplier. An alternative would be to use an all-band antenna that are more readily available, and this would replace your Channle Master 4228, however I think you will get better results on UHF with the Channel Master than an all-band.

As far as the other stations go, channels 8 and 47 are the same as channel 13 (CJOH) in content; channel 2 is the same as channel 14 (Global); channel 23 is the same as channel 30 (TQ). The only one not from Ottawa that would give you something different is channel 5 (CHRO also known as CTV-2). Channel 5 is in the VHF-Low band, so to receive this, you would need a VHF-Low-capable antenna. These are near-to-impossible to find these days (but there are some all-band antennas that would do the job). The least expensive solution would be to construct a simple dipole antenna for that, and join it into the antenna cable with a device known as an HLSJ.

Your pre-amplifier is going to be needed. This particular model is not a good one for urban areas with lots of strong signals, but where you're located it's almost ideal!

If, once getting your gear set up, you find you have reception problems, get back to us in this forum. Things that would improve your reception (but harm your wallet!) include doing a modification to the CM 4228; getting a better pre-amplifier (lower noise level); adding a second CM 4228 to your set of antennas; installing a tall tower. Hopefully, none of this will be necessary!
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post #1682 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-18, 11:20 AM
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Hello, maryjanej (I see that DXer was posting while I was composing.)

Your signals at your new location are 2Edge from terrain interference and much weaker. For comparison, here is a report for Bourget near the Post office:
TV Fool

Your old equipment is suitable for your new location; try it to see what you can get.

CJOH on real channel 13 is a VHF-High channel. If your 4228HD UHF antenna is not able to pick it up, you will need to add a VHF antenna and combine it with a UVSJ UHF/VHF combiner.
Quote:
What channels do you think I could possibly get with my old antenna setup mentioned above?
My guess would be down to CFGS if there are no trees in the signal path.

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883
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post #1683 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-18, 05:12 PM
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Thanks DXer and rabbit73 for all your help and info.

I dragged the marker icon to my house like you explained for the exact location.
here is the result.
TV Fool

I will also look for a VHF-Low-capable antenna or check to see if I can construct a simple dipole antenna.
I will probably try to install this at the beginning of summer as I need to put up a tower first.

Thank you very much for all the info and help.
Mary-Jane
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post #1684 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-18, 11:09 PM
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Will this antenna work for me to get my CHRO channel 5 on my tv fool it shows it at 25.3 miles away.

This Antenna as a reach of 40 miles it says it's good for FM and Low VHF.

40 MILE RANGE EXTRA DURABLE FM ANTENNA | FM / LOW VHF - CHANNEL MASTER CM-3026
It has been discontinued but I found a place in Canada that has it for 59.99 with free shipping.

So far it's the only one I've seen in Canada.

Here is a link of another place that shows it
Channel Master 3026 FM Antenna - Antenna Parts Outlet

Thanks
Mary-Jane
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post #1685 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-19, 02:35 PM
 
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No, despite what FTATronix says, that is for the FM broadcast band only (according to Channel Master's web site)...and never pay any attention to manufacturer's claims about mileage - there are just too many factors affecting effective range of an antenna for them to be able to make any claims about range!

Your latest TVFool shows some reduction in the strength of the Ottawa channels and an increase in the strength of channel 2. If it proves that channel 14 from Ottawa (Global) is too weak, you can fall back on channel 2 (but it's analog, not digital, so you will only get the old standard-definition - and, because it's on VHF-Low - noisy picture from it).

Unfortunately, suitable antennas are very hard to source in Eastern Ontario, but there is a good source in Mississauga - one of the sponsors of this forum, 'Save and Replay' (they will ship for a fee).

I don't think there are any new VHF-Low-only antennas available in North America any longer. You would have to get a combined VHF & UHF antenna to cover VHF-Low. Suitable antennas would be the Winegard HD7000R, or for higher gain, the Winegard HD-7010, HD-7015, HD-7080P, HD-7082P, HD-7084P or HD8200U (in increasing order of gain). Channel Master have the 3016, 3018, 3020, 5016, 5018 and 5020. Unfortunately, the least expensive of these is $90 plus shipping and tax!

To minimize cost, you should put up your existing gear and see what results you get with the antenna pointed at Ottawa. If you get all the Ottawa stations reliably, you needn't spend any more. If not, then come back here with your results.
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post #1686 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-19, 03:33 PM
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Ok thanks Dxer,

Thanks for the info on the antennas.

I'll put up the gear I have. And go from there.

Thanks
Mary-Jane
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post #1687 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-29, 09:23 AM
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Does anyone have any experience with smaller indoor fractal antennae, either purchased (like the NV20 Pro) or home built? Moving in May to the far end of Bridlewood, near corner of Richmond and Stonehaven, according to tvfool o should be able to get City, Global, CTV and CBC with an indoor. I could go with an attic placement, too. If I were to try building my own, how do I determine the length of the segments?
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post #1688 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-29, 11:05 AM
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I just tried a paperclip. Well, the paperclip was too thick so I next tried a twist tie. Ran a channel scan and got 6 DTV channels right off the bat. I thought I would only get CJOH but that's one changed I did *not* get. I'm guessing the paperclip antenna is not ideal for VHF? Anyhow, comparing picture quality of CBC with the same channel on Rogers was eye opening. I'm definitely going to use that come playoff time. So this is very encouraging w.r.t. building a fractal antenna.
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post #1689 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-29, 11:26 AM
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The fractal antenna is a compromise design that can do well in strong signal areas. It usually gives up some gain for a smaller size in comparison to a conventional design. Putting it in an attic gives you a double handicap.

Have you looked at these threads:
Fractal TV Antenna Research & Development
Experiments with residential copper wiring antennas

Interesting indoor antenna tests (including NV20):
Once More, Back to the – Window??
Once More, Back to the - Window?? - HDTVexpert

Computer modeling by holl_ands
UHF Fractal Bowtie - No Reflector

If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
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post #1690 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-03-29, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Moving in May to the far end of Bridlewood, near corner of Richmond and Stonehaven, according to tvfool o should be able to get City, Global, CTV and CBC with an indoor.
Here is a report for McDonald's at the corner of Stonehaven Dr and Old Richmond Rd (59).
TV Fool
Quote:
I thought I would only get CJOH but that's one changed I did *not* get. I'm guessing the paperclip antenna is not ideal for VHF?
That's correct. Indoor antennas are becoming more important because they are often the only option available. I have been doing experiments with indoor antennas at another location and have a similar report with a real channel 13, that is listed as almost the same strength as the UHF channels, but is weaker at the tuner because my indoor antenna doesn't have as much VHF gain as UHF gain. VHF-High antenna elements are three times the size of UHF elements.

The GE Attic Antenna has a 4 element beam for UHF, but only a folded dipole for VHF-High. It requires assembly, but the price is right, especially when on sale. This video was helpful during assembly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qYucg3JXzA

This is the diagnostics screen of my Sony for UHF 16. Notes and photo of antenna added to image of diagnostics screen:




If you can not measure it, you can not improve it.
Lord Kelvin, 1883

Last edited by rabbit73; 2017-03-29 at 06:07 PM.
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post #1691 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-04-18, 02:47 PM
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Fantastic thread. Learning more an mode as I keep catching up to the latest posts (I'm on page 109 now, getting real close). Couple quick questions:

1. Has anyone dealt with "The Un-Cable Guys" (theuncableguys dot ca)? They will install an antenna in your attic and run cable to the basement to distribute throughout the house for $250. From the pictures it looks like 2 x 4-bay bowtie, so they'll aim them in different directions based on your specific location. I've seen a similar antenna for $90 on amazon, although theirs looks like it would be a little less. Add another $50 for a distribution amp and that doesn't leave a lot to pay for installation and profit. I'm guessing the $250 flat rate allows for some add-ons (e.g. no amp included). Maybe I'd be better off just buying my own if, for example, a 4-bay is all I need and dropping a cable down an interior wall does not present any issues.

2. Speaking of what I need, I'll be about 15.5 miles from Camp Fortune and 14 from Herbert's Corners. The nearest PBS is 70 miles and other US networks over 90. I don't want to go beyond an attic mount (i.e. nothing on the roof or side of the house). I'm pretty sure a basic indoor antenna (e.g. the fractal kit from Lee Valley Tools) will get me all the channels from CF/HC. I don't care much for PBS. If that $90 antenna mounted in the attic will get me the US networks it might be worth it. Otherwise why bother. So the question is, should I bother?

For reference: TV Fool
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post #1692 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-04-18, 04:07 PM
 
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Short answer, you won't get any US channels from inside your attic (maybe not even if you had a good antenna on the roof).

Fractal antennas do not work well at the frequencies concerned (as rabbit73 already pointed out). Don't waste your money on one. A 4-bay should do you well, and you shouldn't need a pre-amp.

If you invest in a quality antenna from a well-respected manufacturer, you won't be disappointed. Avoid cheap Chinese imports - they are not optimized for Canadian TV frequencies. Also, two antenna bays pointed in different directions often produce poor results. Try to stick with just one bay.

Keep on reading! All you could ever wish to know about reception in this area is in this thread!

Last edited by DXer; 2017-04-18 at 10:53 PM.
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post #1693 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-04-18, 04:52 PM
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OK, so the only thing my paperclip didn't pick up was CityTV, and with the new place being about 6 miles closer to HC (under 15 vs 21) that should be fine. May not even need an attic Mount. We'll see.

Maryjane, at don't point there was confusion regarding your situation. You need VHF-Hi, not Low. This is for CJOH on channel 13, which is the high end of VHF.
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post #1694 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-04-18, 04:57 PM
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Sorry for the typos. "don't" was supposed to be "some", so "... at some point ..."

For some reason when I click the pencil icon, presumably to edit my post, it doesn't do anything
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post #1695 of 1707 (permalink) Old 2017-04-18, 10:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wprager View Post
Maryjane, at some point there was confusion regarding your situation. You need VHF-Hi, not Low. This is for CJOH on channel 13, which is the high end of VHF.
If you re-read that conversation, Mary-Jane was asking about what she needed to receive channel 5 (CTV) from Pembroke, which is VHF-Low. Channel 13 from Camp Fortune is much weaker than channel 5 where she lives.


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