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ON - Ottawa, Vanier, Gloucester, Orleans - OTA

588K views 2K replies 301 participants last post by  Whitewulf613 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Getting started.
I live just north of the Racetrack/Casino, Quinn Rd

I have lived with rabbit ears for years and want to upgrade to an outside antenna system for 3 TVs picking up as much UHF and VHF signals as possible to start with. By living with cheap rabbit ears running two TVs for years, I know I will be very happy with the improvements I will have going to a proper outside Anenna system for analog and digital signals.

I have been reading posts for 2 days now to get myself started and I think I have information overload and there are so amny things to consider.

I have gone to TVFOOL to find out channels and locations.
I understand I probably do not want a long distance setup as most station are fairly close.
I am not sure of the antennas I need for my area/use.

Does anyone live near me that has been doing this for a while who can help me get started?

Cheers,
 
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#563 ·
Heemu could you repost your tvfool link ? It does not work for me.

Based on that you can decide if you have a shot at us channels, which ones like Wnyf and if you wish to get global on channel 6. You may need 2 antennas in the end, but not because of pointing but to cover UHF and VHF frequency ranges.

7777 and 7778 are very similar, it's better to match your gain with your needs - depends in your case of how many tuners you plan to have in addition to this length of cable. The 7777 is always an easy recommendation if you don't know as it has higher gain with a lower noise figure. Go figure... It also has 2 inputs for UHF and VHF antennas (if needed) AND we found the included fm trap to be priceless here in Ottawa as per backpackster's findings. Using a Kitz here requires an fm trap in front of it which diminishes the Kitz appeal in Ottawa.
 
#564 ·
After consideration, I think i'm going to stick with my Terk HDTVa...

It's picking up everything I want, short of Global and CHCH (CHCH didn't come in on my old antenna either, Global came in slightly better but still wasn't watchable)

The analog channels are all watchable (short of Global and CHCH) which is more than my old antenna could do. The digital are all watchable, but Citytv and whichever Omni is 66 requires some creative antenna placement :)

I do recommend it if you're in my situation and can't do outdoor. it seems like a great INDOOR antenna as long as you have somewhat line of sight.

I'm at Rideau and Chapel, 3rd floor facing south.
 
#565 ·
Looking for Altavista antenna recommendation

Hi again,

I appreciate the useful comments and suggestions from HWP, tvlurker, flavoie and roger1818.

HWP, your point about the prices is well-noted. Most "good" indoor antennas are about the same price as the outdoor ones. I have seen the outdoor antennas being sold by The Source and on amazon.ca. Any other retailers that anybody could recommend?

tvlurker, my analog signal is not the greatest (lots of ghosting), but the little set top antenna gets us all of the channels. On the new digital TV (a Sony Bravia), we get all of the same analog channels plus digital CBC from the same position, suggesting that maybe the digital tuner in the Bravia isn't the greatest?!? When I used an indoor amplified antenna, depending on the position, I sometimes got digital cityTV and OmniTV.

From the antenna decision chart, the recommendation for post-transitional Canadian TV is a Winegard HD769XP line. Does anyone have experience with this one?

Also, as the price difference between the CM4228HD and CM3679 is not that great, can anyone recommend the CM3679?

Thanks very much for all of your help.
 
#566 ·
I don't believe we make retailer recommendations in this thread, but you can find another thread at Digital Home that discusses where to buy locally and online. There are a few places in Ottawa:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=23984

Your Bravia's tuner is fine. The antenna is lacking. If you can get something up on the roof, you'll be thrilled with your results.

As far as antenna selection, you're referring to the right place (antenna chart). If you go with an outdoor rooftop antenna, how would you consider mounting it? Install a tower? Strap it to a chimney? Tripod on roof? This consideration may help you decide which is the best antenna to go with.
 
#570 ·
heemu, based on your TVFool, with WNYF at -13.6NM you can forget about WNYF (Fox/CBS) unless you can build an antenna that can have a 4dB better gain than a 4228hd at UHF channel 18. It could be a tall challenge and you may end up with a very big antenna. I'll help analyzing your TVFool here so you know what channels you need to look for, then you can go back in the Antenna R&D threads to find what type of antenna fits your physical needs and the channels you want.

What you should look for:
channel 18: Is a 18dB+ gain antenna at that channel possible ?

channel 6 (Global): to get it you need to cover the VHF low range

channels 9, 13(SRC,CTV post-transition): to get it you need to cover the VHF Hi range.

all other channels: any UHF antenna would cover the rest of the channels.

You can decide to have more than 1 antenna to cover VHF and UHF. You may find the higher the gain, the bigger the antenna...
 
#571 ·
rabbitears, before selecting an antenna in the chart, try to find their size/weight. Some are monsters which by definition require a very strong support structure (like a tower) and a lot of room around if you want to aim them in a specific direction. Size/Weight is one of the reasons some UHF-only antennas are popular over others; they can be more practical to install by individuals like us. Some will prefer a single monster antenna, and others would prefer 2 smaller antennas, just for install reasons.
 
#572 ·
Altavista, Ottawa antenna choices

Thanks very much for all of the tips. Sorry for the faux pas about asking about retailers on this thread. I have check out the link provided by HWP and searched as flavoie recommended and found a couple of retailers in Ottawa.

flavoie, I checked out your ingenious stallation(s) on another site and wish I had a play structure, but my kids aren't' old enough yet... ;-)

HWP, I am thinking of a chimney mount as we have the TV in the living room (where the chimney is) and it would be the shortest route into the house. I just have to figure out how to get the cabling into the living room from outside in a decent manner. My plan B would be an eave mount. I would like to avoid mounting directly on the roof if I could.

flavoie, thanks very much for the comment on the weight/size of the various antennas. I hadn't really thought about this and will definitely look up these specs. I now understand why the UHF only antennas are so popular and why all the fuss of Global being on channel 6, thus leading some people to have two antennas instead of one to receive both UHF and VHF signals).

For UHF reception, is the CM4228 recommended over the HD8800 and DB-8?

Now, I have to do some more research, check out prices and make some decisions. I will report back here about reception when I get to that stage.

Thanks for your generous assistance.
 
#573 ·
My vote is with a chimney mounted 4228hd with Channel Master pre-amp 7778 or 7777 - whichever works better for those aiming at the USA through the Herbert's Corner transmitters.

Quality RG6 cable - not bought from a big-box store, Thomas & Betts connectors, and a quality splitter if you have multiple TVs. Try to get all this stuff from your antennas supplier - they are more likely to sell you quality product.

The 4228hd will not be too big for a chimney, and will have some gain for channels 9, 11?, and 13 after the digital transition. Cross your fingers for Global. If it doesn't work, try a rotator.

Good luck!
 
#576 ·
great, in this case i would not bother with WNYF, and focus on get something good at channel 23 for WNPI(PBS). The hd8800 has an edge for channel 23 but does not have VHF-Hi coverage. With a 4228hd you'd likely get the VHF-Hi channels from the back of the antenna if you pointed south to get channel 23 and the HC channels. Right now they would look bad in analog but after the transition they'd be OK.

Do you want Global ? you could not get it with either hd8800 or cm4228hd. You'd need a big VHF/UHF combo antenna or use 1 antenna for VHF and another for UHF, or 1 antenna for VHF Lo and another for VHF Hi and UHF.
 
#577 ·
Roger1818,

Let's do some more math...

For our guy, Rabbitears, in order to avoid mounting a large low-vhf antenna, do you think he would be able to get away with a VHF-High Winegard YA-1713 directed at Camp Fortune and still somehow pull in Global? I know it's cut to the wrong lenth, but it is still a lot of metal in the sky pointing in the right direction. If the answer is yes, then I would go with:

Winegard YA-1713 pointed at Camp Fortune
Winegard hd8800 pointed at rf23 (PBS)
Channel Master 7777 (or 7778) pre-amp -- whichever the Ottawa people say will not risk overloading you since rf23 is not far off the direction of the Herbert's Corners transmitters.
Mounted on your chimney.

If you don't care about Global, then a 4228hd pointed toward USA with pre-amp.

I know it's not the "best" antenna choice, but might it work? He wants a chimney install. At my cottage, I manage to get a watchable analog rf4 CBOT using my amped 4228hd.
 
#578 ·
Global being the harder to reach channel, i would consider a VHF Lo&Hi antenna like the VIP302SR (or even bigger antennas) instead of the 1713 . The 1713 is made for the 7-13 range, so it is understandably inferior on the 2-6 range.

my "small" vip302sr would get a full 3dB gain above the 1713. And you could do even better if you went for a bigger antenna.
 
#581 ·
Regarding Global, we will have to wait and see, but here are the issues:
  • Low ERP (and HAAT) for Global
  • VHF-LO is inherently very noisy with types of noise not seen on other bands and thus disregarded in simulations and tuner design.
  • Lower antenna gain on VHF-LO than other bands.
  • Many very strong FM stations also transmitted from CF (FM band is adjacent to channel 6)

All of these factors will make Global very difficult to revive and I doubt if an an antenna not designed for VHF-LO will cut it. Even then some antennas may not receive it reliably even if they do receive the other locals.

While it is possible to combine an VHF-HI/UHF antenna with a VHF-LO antenna, it is much easier to combine a VHF antenna with a UHF antenna since you can just use the separate inputs on the pre-amp (if using one).

One of the nice thing about the CM-7777 is it has separate amplifiers for VHF and UHF so when configured for separate inputs, it just feeds them directly into the appropriate amp, effectively giving each antenna its own pre-amp (though it does do some filtering first). This also increases overall signal capacity and reduces harmonic distortion from VHF to UHF. When using the combined input, it will band separate the signal first so it still uses both amps.

Because of all this, IMHO the best VHF antennas for Ottawa are either the Wade/Delhi VIP-302SR (available locally) or VIP-303SR (available online in the US). The VIP-302SR is only 4’8½” long (though about 9' wide at the widest, but rapidly tapers down) and should have more than enough gain for CBOFT and CJOH. The big question is how will it handle Global post transition.

For myself, I have ordered one of the last (if not the last) remaining 5Y6S cut channel Yagis for channel 6 (I should be receiving it next week). Initially I will combine it with my current antenna, but I hope to replace that with a small VHF-HI antenna and an HD-8800 (if I can get my wife's approval ;)).
 
#592 ·
I have ordered one of the last (if not the last) remaining 5Y6S cut channel Yagis for channel 6 (I should be receiving it next week).
I received my 5Y6S last night. It sure is a thing of beauty (though my wife laughed when I said that ;)). Now to find time to install it.
 
#583 ·
roger, your findings about the tuner is great !

I think this is something worth continuing the discussion in either the tuners, the preamps or both those special threads. It confirms my experience that adding a low noise preamp anywhere in the chain helps, and I assume we'll have this kind of problem with a bunch of other tuners if the 950Q has that much of a noise figure just on the input amp. We could continue that research for other tuners to see how far of a problem this can be. Especially in the context of Toronto users which are generally not using preamps for overload reasons, but where sometimes using a low noise figure distribution amp makes things better.
 
#585 ·
roger, are you going for something like the 1713 for VHF Hi ?
For locals I think the 1713 is overkill. My thought is to go with either the Y5-7-13 or YA-6713 but I may also stick with my current antenna if it works.

How do you plan on joining the 3 antennas if you go ahead with this plan ?
I have a few ideas and haven't decided exactly which one I will use. Optimally I would have one pre-amp per antenna (the CM-7777 counts as two) and then using both a Join-Tenna and HLSJ (with one as a filter). Alternately I could use only a CM-7777 and combine the two VHF antennas.

I plan to draw my ideas and post them here when I get a chance.
 
#586 ·
FWIW, i compared our 2 TVFools; you have a slightly better but almost the same Global 6 NM.

My vip302sr in the attic, with a good 15-20 feet between the antenna and the cm7777 on the roof, gives me a grainy but OK Global. But i only roughly pointed it north west, spending no time finding the sweet spot where it should be pointing so i could get it better. I'll be curious to see it come live in digital this summer.
 
#587 ·
Altavista, Ottawa antenna requirements

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the great input everyone.

HWP, thanks very much for the advice/recommendations and for re-posting my TVfool report for flavoie.

flavoie, you mention that you have one antenna (the vip302sr) in the attic and the other on the roof. Have you ever tried putting both in the attic? I am wondering if anyone knows how a CM4228HD would perform in an attic versus outside?

roger1818, I appreciate your recommendation. Also, since your setup is in the attic, do you find that you get all of the channels available? Is it an amplified antenna? Are you planning on putting your new channel 6-specific antenna in there as well?

Thanks for your help once again.
 
#589 ·
Also, since your setup is in the attic, do you find that you get all of the channels available?
I bought my current antenna before I knew anything about them, so that is my biggest limitation (it does poorly with VHF-LO (2-6) and upper UHF (above ~55?)) so Global is very intermittent (varies from very noisy to very watchable), CFMT-TV(60) and CITY-TV(65) are poor (though I can get them digitally now) and I cannot get CJMT-DT(66). I am not able to see any of the American broadcasts, but was able to occasionally get them (poorly) when they were analog.

Is it an amplified antenna?
It is, but not a very good one.

Are you planning on putting your new channel 6-specific antenna in there as well?
Most likely since my wife probably won't let me put it on the roof. It is going to be a challenge to get it to fit as it is about 6'x6' and I need to have it rotated about 45 degrees from the trusses.

Hmm, CF is angled towards the back (and side) of the house, so I wonder if she would let me put it (and the VHF-HI antenna) on the back side of the roof, hidden from the view of the street. The UHF antenna will need a view towards the street though, but I might be able to hide it from most angles.
 
#588 ·
rabbitears: jrmclean, who posted just before you, has such a setup, with separate UHF + VHF antennas in the attic.

His reception area is different than yours, but more importantly, the roof and other houses around you may be different as well. I have been impressed at what he's been able to achieve just in his attic, but roofs and surroundings, trees, other houses, can make all the difference when it comes to reception. We just can't estimate what it would be like for you. You can always try it out in the attic first if you like. Your roof will attenuate the signal before it comes to the antenna(s) and you will get worse reception compared to a roof antenna.

I have to warn you that it can be deceiving. The signal will be best at night and worse during the day. When there is bad weather, signal gets worse too. Having an antenna on the very best location essentially gives you more signal margin so it still works when the signal goes down because you're still getting enough. This is where you could lose a station when your antenna is in the attic during bad weather but be completely fine when the antenna is on the roof.
 
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