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ON - Ottawa, Vanier, Gloucester, Orleans - OTA

588K views 2K replies 301 participants last post by  Whitewulf613 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Getting started.
I live just north of the Racetrack/Casino, Quinn Rd

I have lived with rabbit ears for years and want to upgrade to an outside antenna system for 3 TVs picking up as much UHF and VHF signals as possible to start with. By living with cheap rabbit ears running two TVs for years, I know I will be very happy with the improvements I will have going to a proper outside Anenna system for analog and digital signals.

I have been reading posts for 2 days now to get myself started and I think I have information overload and there are so amny things to consider.

I have gone to TVFOOL to find out channels and locations.
I understand I probably do not want a long distance setup as most station are fairly close.
I am not sure of the antennas I need for my area/use.

Does anyone live near me that has been doing this for a while who can help me get started?

Cheers,
 
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#445 · (Edited by Moderator)
Duchaine. ROTOR ?

Duchaine,

I think your antenna is fine. Looks like a good one. It's a receive all VHF / UHF / FM yagi (?)

Everyone mentioned experimenting with aiming the antenna. I agree.

1. ROTOR? But I see no mention of installing a ROTOR.

It's an obvious suggestion... but I'll mention it anyway... I think a ROTOR installation will help do that - and allow you to experiment and aim back and forth - depending on what channel you want to watch.

(Agreed ... since CF is 50 degrees to the side of HC, that is a good thing, and you want to try and steer the biggest side NULL of your antenna at CF, when trying to receive HC channels.)

2. Switchable FM Trap. High Q. If FM is causing trouble, interference, and bad picture with Global, ch 6, Switchable FM TRAP (Agreed). High quality one. "High Q". Steep roll off. Switchable - Trap IN / OUT - so you can experiment ... or FM TRAP "OUT", switched off if you do want to point around, and receive FM (I think your antenna receives FM too).

3. No Pre-AMP. Agreed. I do not think a pre-amp is necessary for your goals. Signals strong enough. A pre-amp may actually introduce other problems and make things more complex.
 
#446 ·
Duchaine,

Polar Plot for the CM-3671

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/CM3671.html

I wrote: "steer the biggest side NULL of your antenna at CF, when trying to receive HC channels"


Best Null appears to be at 90 degrees for your antenna.
(Yagi receives least off the ends of the elements - naturally)

So try this to receive HC channels: in your case Duchaines, point your CM-3671 antenna at 82 degrees (CF) + 90 degrees = 172 degrees to receive HC channels and reject CF channels and reject CF FM radio transmissions.


CF 82 deg....................................................................HC 152 deg
(max null here)

|
|
| CM-3671 ant. point --->
|----------------------------------------| point 172 deg. (20 deg right of HC)
|
|
|
 
#447 ·
I'm going to go against the crowd and say if Global is not strong enough, trying a cm7777 (on loan like you mentioned) can be a worthwhile experience.

If you keep your 3671 antenna pointed at HC and are getting the CF channels from the back of the antenna where the gain is lower, a cm7777 with the FM trap turned on and the wideband UHF/VHF preamp could help. You'd need to set the 7777 with FM trap "IN" and "Combined" input setting when using just your single VHF/UHF antenna. (Using the Combined input connector...)
 
#448 ·
By the way, this based on my own experience... Adding a preamp to my cm4228hd improved signal strength for signals coming off the back... which some channels which were sketchy became reliable. All depends what signal levels you are getting now, the 7777 embedded trap (read: blocker) may be a very very nice extra help needed since channel 6 usually gets interference from the FM channels
 
#449 ·
Duchaine, my original diagram above, has an error.

on your TV Fool, HC is 132 deg to you, (not 152 deg - wrong, my mistake.)

That changes it to: point 40 deg right of HC (not point 20 deg right of HC)

Corrections to diagram underlined and in bold.


CF 82 deg......................................................... ...........HC 132 deg
(max null here)

|
|
| CM-3671 ant. point --->
|----------------------------------------| point 172 deg. (40 deg right of HC)
|
|
|

( I'm using "true", not "magnetic" numbers. Take that into consideration if using a compass to aim, compass = magnetic, small difference)

40 degrees to the right of HC is alot. Much more than the 20 degrees I thought originally. That may cause some issues for UHF channels from HC. Anyway ... experiment, give it a try.

Find an aiming point, somewhat to the right of HC, for all channels, where you reject enough of CF and get suitable results for HC channels.

If it works ... and you find that changing the aim of the antenna is necessary to receive ALL/each of the channels well - CF and HC channels... then consider a rotor.
 
#450 ·
By the way, I use a rotor, but not for rotating between channels. I only use it for not having to go back to the roof to reorient the antenna ! This way i can tweak my accuracy within 1 degree from the comfort of my home. So i rarely ever use it, but for me not going back to the roof is priceless for the original cost I paid for it.
 
#451 ·
CM-3671

Thanks to all of you.
I now have quite a few options to try out. I will need to make a matrix of my results.
Because of the temperature over the weekend, I did not go on the roof. A rotor would have been nice and will consider one in the spring.
I should receive my friends CM-7777 this week and will add it to the trials -hopefully next weekend.

Mrvanwinkles, I am not sure if I follow your logic, but I can tell you, that the antenna is actualy about that direction now (about 40deg to the right of HC). I was getting CITY(not Global as mentionned in my initial post) descently after my 10-12 trips up and down, so I left it there. But I did not understand why. To me, pointing directly to a far transmitting antenna, makes more sense.( I will study your posts to understand this) I can't wait to experiment, with an helper in the living room this time, to see what is my best compromise.

Flavoie (and Roger1818), I also like the idea of the pre-amp as a filter, if nothing more. I will set it up the way you suggest. Regarding a rotor, what kind of price and wiring I must look at? Because I am looking at only 2 antennas, I thought that, comes to worst, I will by a small UHF antenna for CF and keep my big one for HC, but again, only experience will tell. I have also started planning to take the big tree at the edge of my property next spring. Mainly to increase my reception, but also because it is treatening the house.

Again, thanks to all of you. BTW, are any of you using a Bell PVR with OTA to record? if so, what is the best/fastest way to record without the EPG?
 
#454 ·
I thought that, comes to worst, I will by a small UHF antenna for CF and keep my big one for HC,
I do not recommend buying a second UHF antenna! The UHF signals from CF should be very strong and easily receivable with any antenna and since you also want UHF from HC, combining them will weaken the signals from the big antenna.

You will most likely want a separate VHF-LO antenna however for receiving Global. It would be much easier to combine since there isn't any VHF-LO from HC. Because of your situation you will need one that will reject the strong FM and VHF-HI signals also from CF.
 
#452 · (Edited by Moderator)
duchaine said:
(about 40deg to the right of HC). I was getting CITY
I am glad to hear that this worked for you, for City-TV ch. from the HC, Herbert's Corner / Manotic transmitter. (? and the other channels from HC like that?)

To get Global, I am guessing / my theory is - that you have to point your antenna directly at the Camp Fortune Tower. 82 deg. But Global is a problem for you for other reasons:
1. The Global Transmitter is lower down on the CF tower - and there is not a direct line of sight (LOS) between your antenna and the Global transmitting antenna. (your TV fool tells us-->) There is a hill or other obstructions directly between your antenna and Global transmitting antenna. This makes power you receive from Global less. And gives you worse / lower quality signal also.
2. Global is on frequency of channel 6. VHF Low - just below / and very near FM band - and therefore you may have interference from powerful FM transmitters also located on CF tower - when you try to receive Global ch6. This may give nothing - no reception of ch 6. or a very poor picture. (Yes, the FM Trap in the 7777 Pre-amp may help with this - but the Amplifier part of the 7777 pre-amp may cause trouble - overload with the other powerful channels and FM signals from CF tower ... which is very close to you.)

All you can do is point the antenna, and try the 7777 & trap - and see what happens.

Good luck and let us know how it goes ...
 
#455 ·
Regarding Duchaine's problem. Another idea came to mind.

Duchaine's TV fool indicates:

- mostly all of HC is UHF, [except for one channel, CHCH TV ind, - ch 11 vhf hi]
- HC is 23.8 miles distant (not too too far, close enough for a loop antenna).
- At 30 ft antenna height shown on his TV fool, he's got a couple LOS and the rest mostly 1 edge from HC.

What about if Duchaine constructs a simple oversized UHF loop (oversized to try and get ch 11 on VHF hi too).
- screens it on one side of the loop to sheild it from all stuff coming from CF
- screens the loop on the back with a separate reflector, placed the right distance back, to add a little gain from the front, and also to reject anything coming from the back.

- mounts it off the side of his tower(?), near the top, on the side opposite CF (the tower steel will add extra sheilding)

-Points the loop correctly straight at HC

Even an oversized UHF loop is not that big, and easy to make.

(ex those steel wire circles that fall off decorative hub caps - I have half a dozen in the basement - collected from the curb - found all around - a little bigger than your average UHF loop)

I think this is an easy, do it yourself test that Duchaine could try.

( screen? 1/2 by 1/2 inch square mesh? sturdy and tight enough.)


Top View:

CF
|
|
x CF direct signal blocked from loop by screen 1 and Duchaine's TV tower.


(Duchaine's)
(TV tower)
------------------ screen 1
|
|
|
|.....O..<---------------------------------------------- HC
| oversized
| uhf loop ant. aim broadside, directly at HC.
|
|
Screen 2
back refl for loop.

( oh ya, separate coax downlead for the loop. do not combine the signals. if the loop works for HC, it can be A-B switched at the TV with the large Yagi - and maybe no need for rotor. Point the large YAGI 3671 at CF, FM trap it if necessary to get all those CF - TV channels. )
 
#457 ·
Yes, come September, all VHF will be from CF. VHF-HI will not likely be a problem from CF as he has LOS. His big problem will be Channel 6 (also from CF) as he has a 2-edge diffraction and there will be tones of FM interference.
 
#459 ·
While that kind of screening seems like a logical solution, unfortunately rather than acting as a blocker of the undesirable signals it may act as a "tuner" or "reshaper" of the intended reception field, possibly giving unwanted results.

The only time I recommend that sort of screening is for attic-mounted antennas in homes near airports as a means of countering aircraft flutter, with the mesh being above the antenna and definitely not to the side.

If you want a more technical analysis of the screening idea just post a thread in the Antennas R&D Forum showing your diagram.
 
#460 ·
While that kind of screening seems like a logical solution, unfortunately rather than acting as a blocker of the undesirable signals it may act as a "tuner" or "reshaper" of the intended reception field, possibly giving unwanted results.
Good point! The reflections off the mesh will distort the reception pattern of the antenna. To make matters worse, this distortion will be channel dependent.
 
#461 · (Edited by Moderator)
Orleans

Hey guys,

I'm currently contemplating going OTA and cutting rogers. I live in a townhouse in Orleans and I'm not sure what the regulations are with regards to mounting anything on the roof/garage. I've been looking at some indoor antennas (Terk omnidirectional, Terk directional, Zenith SS) as a potential antenna. I was wondering if there's anyone in Orleans with experience with indoor antennas and expected results. I suspect that I would be placing the antenna about 6 feet off the floor so maybe a total of 8 feet in the air and I would have the possibility of placing it in windows (I don't know it's orientation yet).

I think If I can get CTV, Global and CityTV - that would be enough for me to take the plunge and get rid of cable. Here's my tvfool

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=3cf4c3a4db4360

Based on that, can you guys offer any recommendations and/or comments?

Thanks!
 
#462 · (Edited by Moderator)
Ottawa: experimental farm area

Hi everyone,

I just discovered this fourm and joined as I'm interested in getting rid of my cable & trying OTA.

My TV fool page is here:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id=3cf427316c68be

I am wondering what I would require antenna wise for OTA. I can install an antenna on my roof. No building interference around me. This seems to be the best option for maximum coverage. I would like to pick up the US channels as well if possible.

Thanks,

Jingles
 
#463 ·
Jingles,

Welcome to the forum. Please read the OTA FAQ & Knowledge Base to get up-to-speed on the basics of Over-the-Air TV and antennas.

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=41102

But before you make any mistakes, don't go an order that magic antenna. There is an ad for it on this web site -- an annoying thing for anyone who knows about antennas. It's overpromising. With that antenna you'd be lucky to get all the Ottawa stations. You'll learn from the OTA Knowledge Base that there's really no such thing as a 150 mile antenna.

If you want the American networks you'll probably have to do what the others in this this thread have done -- full sized antennas capbable of pulling in high-vhf (channel 7) and a good UHF antenna. Later this year, Global will go HD on Channel 6 which might require you to have a low-vhf antenna. You're lucky that you found this forum before you have bought anything. You can do it right the first time.

Maybe you could re-do your TV Fool using your exact address and edit your first post with the new link. The address won't show.
 
#465 · (Edited)
Hey Jingles
You live not too far from me. The interesting piece in my set up is that I (and so are you) am exactly between the two Ottawa towers. I have a modified CM4221 on the roof and I get everything there is from Ottawa towers (no US channels) I have stopped fussing about analogue quality though it isn't perfect. Channel 66 digital is just OK for me so I wouldn't go anything less than that antenna. I'm not amplifying anything at the moment but thinking about it as transition to digital approaches. On paper it looks like you have a slightly better chance at WCFE or WNPI than I have (You are higher up) but as HWP has said - serious antenna work!!!
 
#468 ·
Duchaine - results

Thanks to all for you suggestions for my problem. I did over 20 trips up and down the ladders(2) to tries all the scenarios and see what looks best for me (flavoie, I think I should have bought a rotor to save on these up/down trips).

I received my CM-7777 pre-amp from my friend out west. So I installed it first. I thought that by unplugging it from the wall would give me the non-amp reception, but no, I would have had to reconnect the cable upstairs, so I went ahead with pre-amp test only.
Here are my results - note that although it was suggested that the UHF part of my antenna (CM-3671) should be facing toward the transmitting station like a satellite dish, I found I had better luck the other way( away from the station). So the orientation of the antenna is for the opening of the UHF pointing -degrees in brackets (+-5deg).

test # UHF opening cbc(4) src(9) ctv(13A) city(17) sun(20)
1 N (360) 77 97 no 64 87
2 S (180) 76 73 no 0 76
3 toward CF (094) 46 83 no 0 0
4 away from CF (274) 72 0 OK 60 74
5 toward HC(145) 73 72 Ok 0 75
6 away from HC (325) 90 88 OK 63 96
7 15 deg off #6 (340) 91 91 soso 0 95

I listed stations that I am interested in for reference. But I was never getting Global or OMNI. I am starting to beleive that there might be a topographical feature toward HC's OMNI antenna. For global, I could be Mount King as suggested.

In conclusion, the pre-amp did not give me much of what I had which was about #1 before - I settled to the position of #6 - which give me 13A CTV - for my wife to watch her Grace Anatomy and my Survivor/Amazing race.Because of that, I will keep it, at least until CTV goes digital. Anyone knows when this will happen in Ottawa?

I thing I also noticed is that a few degrees, say betwenn #6 andf #7 make me loose CITY and CTV. Perhaps a rotor would help me get a much better alignment????

My next step is to add about 6ft to the antenna - I do not want to deal with guy wires, so I will only go this high. Will that make a difference?
I am not considering an extra antenna at this time, at least not until spring - after I cut the trees on my property line and see what I get for reception.

thank you all for your help and suggestions.
 
#469 ·
Stephg
Lots of good stuff is in the FAQ and from your TV fool there's sure to be an antenna set-up to get you all the local digital channels.
here's where I would start:

Check your TV has an ATSC tuner (google or check the manual)
If so, plug rabbit ears in
run the channel search

There's a good chance you'll get at least one or two digital channels
 
#471 ·
Upgrade: Antenna or Pre-amp or???

I want my 2 TVs and a myth box connected to one antenna. With 1 TV connected (no splitters), everything was fine. With a splitter and a second TV, channel 66 drops out from time to time on the original set and I can't get a lock on the second TV. Add a second splitter and neither TV#2 or the myth box get a lock on 66 (both take longer to lock on everything else). I'm only really focussing on getting digital stations well right now - but including a solution that should work post transition.
I am assuming that I don't have enough of a signal to split so many times. My TV fool is in my profile. I am using a roof-mounted, hacked CM4221HD with no reflector, picking up CF from the front and HC from the back.
Question is - what to do? A pre amp? or a higher gain antenna? Any advice? More tests to do? Thanks for any ideas
 
#472 ·
With a roof-mounted antenna in the middle of winter? I'd consider the Kitztech KT100-VG low-noise amp mounted indoors at ground level wherever your splitters are.

It will recover your problem channels and solidify everything else and you don't have to go up on your roof.
 
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