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ON - Ottawa, Vanier, Gloucester, Orleans - OTA

588K views 2K replies 301 participants last post by  Whitewulf613 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Getting started.
I live just north of the Racetrack/Casino, Quinn Rd

I have lived with rabbit ears for years and want to upgrade to an outside antenna system for 3 TVs picking up as much UHF and VHF signals as possible to start with. By living with cheap rabbit ears running two TVs for years, I know I will be very happy with the improvements I will have going to a proper outside Anenna system for analog and digital signals.

I have been reading posts for 2 days now to get myself started and I think I have information overload and there are so amny things to consider.

I have gone to TVFOOL to find out channels and locations.
I understand I probably do not want a long distance setup as most station are fairly close.
I am not sure of the antennas I need for my area/use.

Does anyone live near me that has been doing this for a while who can help me get started?

Cheers,
 
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#415 ·
For less than 40$ plus taxes you can find a Channel Master cm4220hd at a local Ottawa store. You could go up to a 4221 or 4228 but you'll notice they may look too big for you indoors. If you can put the antenna right next to a Window, this is probably one of your best values for an indoor antenna. You'll be missing the VHF channels like roger mentioned, but you can always join that UHF antenna to rabbit ears using a UVSJ if needed.
 
#416 ·
Thank you all for your responses. This is such a helpful fourm.

I bought a 4220 at the Motophoto at Carlingwood. What great service, I even had cables made so I could snake it through my window to my balcony without drilling holes.

The signal is stronger than my GE Millenium cheapo indoor antenna but not by much. It does seen to pull in the analog signals much stronger - especially 13 so I'm hoping that I will be be able to pick up the digital VHF stations with this UHF antenna.

I found that even the slightest angle adjustment would result in the complete loss of the signal - does that mean that I'm just receiving reflections? I don't have a direct line of sight to CF as there are some tall buildings in the distance (4 blocks away).

Unfortunately, no luck in picking up the signals from HC.
 
#417 ·
I found that even the slightest angle adjustment would result in the complete loss of the signal - does that mean that I'm just receiving reflections? I don't have a direct line of sight to CF as there are some tall buildings in the distance (4 blocks away).

Unfortunately, no luck in picking up the signals from HC.
If you're pointing away from Camp Fortune, you may be picking up reflections.

If your're pointing towards those tall buildings 4 blocks away, you may be picking up refractions (around the sides, or even over the top) of those buildings.

In addition to aiming your 4220 in different directions, also try tipping it upwards -- it may pick up more of the signal refracted over the top of the distant buildings.
 
#418 ·
Now getting OMNI 27.1 and .2 using CM 4220 downtown facing northwest

Hi,

Well, after a lot of experimentation, I'm now pulling in a signal from HC somewhat consistently. For my predicament, the 4220 antenna seems to work best inside vs outside and angled behind my TV. It had to be placed at one specific position - if I angle it a couple of mm the wrong way I lose the signal completely. I am right downtown with lots of tall buildings around.

I'm also able to pick up 66.1 consistently on a TV in another room using GE Millenium UHF/VHF antenna.

I have yet to get CITY TV on 65.1 with either antenna.

Thanks again for all the advice I'll continue to experiment.
 
#421 ·
CITY-DT 17.1 is using only a third of the power of the OMNIs (5.1 kW vs 15kW), and so may be the hardest to get. To top it off, I've noticed that it has been a bit finickier to get lately with my indoor Silver Sensor. I get most of the locals pointed in any direction, but for CITY, I now need to precisely point it towards HC.
 
#424 ·
Yes, although pointing it south means pointing it through at least 4 concrete walls.

Here's what I've settled on with a CM 4220, indoors, angled about 30 degrees SE from perpendicular to the horizon. I can get over 80% signal strength on any given channel (except 17.1) but not concurrently, so the comprimise looks like this (meaning this is with the antenna in one position so I don`t have to adjust it). This is the reception tonight (cloudy):

4.1 62%-65% (stable)
9.1 76% (stable)
17.1 (no signal)
20.1 70%-73% (stable)
27.1 76%-78% (sometimes lose signal for an instant)
66.1 54-59% (sometimes lose signal for an instant)
 
#428 ·
I didn't have the opportunity to put my CM4228 on my roof before winter... will do in the spring! But, I'm in Orleans (around Innes/Portobello) and wondering what signals are we now able to pick up? Thanks
Nothing has changed over the past 6 months and nothing will likely change until this summer (proably not until August 31).
 
#429 ·
CM-7777

I am having problem receiving digital signal from Manotic. I live near CF,on the river and get all the CF stations easily with a 6in indoor antenna.
So I installed a CM-9671 antenna on my roof last week- but I bearly added Global(60%) from my set-up. The dealer is suggesting I install a CM-7777 to improve my performance. However, I read that too much amplification might not be good. I certainly do not want to lose the CF stations.
What can be my problem?

Also, what direction do I have to point the antenna - my dealer is saying that the UHF arrow must points to it, but the drawing on the installation sheet seems to point away. I any case, it did not seem to make a difference.

Further, as this is a combined antenna, if I need amplification, should I buy a CM7775 or a CM-7777?


(FYI, only one TV connected to a 50ft cable to the antenna. My postal code is J0X 2G0.)
 
#433 ·
On a 3671, the narrower elements should point in the desired direction.
A UHF Corner reflector (the part shaped like an arrow) can be described as pointing AWAY from the desired direction. (Think of it as a simplified satellite dish -- instead of being bowl-shaped, it is just a partially folded piece of paper.)

At only seven miles from Camp Fortune, I would not recommend a preamp.
Also, unless you're trying for American stations (which according to yuor TVFool, are out of the question for reliable daily reception), a 3671 is a bit of overkill for your location. However, pointed in the right direction, it should work for the Herberts Corners tower. (It's not really Manotick, but that's what some people call it) .
 
#434 ·
duchaine, Looking at your TVFool results, I would say that is the wrong antenna for your needs. As tvlurker said the CM3671 is a high gain antenna (more than you need) and too directional for your situation.

Here are some things I noticed about your results:
  • You have no hope of receiving any American stations (the strongest is WNPI with a noise margin of -16.3 dB)
  • The separation between CF and HC is 50 degrees, which is good, especially since you are much closer to CF.
  • You have a 2-edge diffraction for Globall (CIII) but LOS to all other stations at CF. This is because it is so low on the tower an there is a hill peak in the way.
  • You have 1-edge diffraction to all the stations at HC.

I would highly recommend a 3 antenna solution with the following antennas:
  1. A CM-4221 for UHF pointed towards HC (or maybe a bit to the left of it) as you should easily be able to pick up the CF stations on the side.
  2. A low gain VHF-HI Yagi antenna such as a YA-6713 or Y5713. Initially you will want to point it a bit to the left of HC (more so than the UHF antenna). Post transition you will want to swing it around more towards CF (though likely not directly at it unless you add some attenuation to its feed).
  3. A VHF-LO Yagi antenna pointed directly at CF for Global (both now and post transition). Also, tilt the antenna up about 30 degrees (angled so that it is aimed at the peak hiding the base of the CF tower).

You could replace the two VHF antennas with a single all VHF antenna pointed at CF but most have higher gain on VHF-HI than on VHF-LO and you want the reverse as Global will be a struggle to receive. It would also mean you wouldn't receive CHCH until post transition when it moves to UHF.

As for a pre-amp, with only 50' of cable driving one TV you could likely get away without one, but you will then need to use separate band separator/combiners to join the antennas.

BTW CF = Camp Fortune and HC = Herberts Corners
 
#436 ·
Thinking more about it, if your only problem station is Global, you could add only the VHF-LO Yagi antenna pointed directly at CF for it and use your CM3671 for everything else. Pointing his current antenna at HC won't help with that.
 
#437 ·
CM3671

Wow! you guys are good.
Lots of suggestions.

TVLurker, thanks, I will point the antenna the right way now and tell the dealer about it, it must have been a misunderstanding.

When and if I can, I will try to re-orient the present antenna. - although I am interested in digital pictures for my large screen (although I understand not all are yet digital).
I will also try to have someone in the leaving room while I am on the roof instead of trial and errors, back and forth to the roof.

I am much more interested in CTV and Global than Omni and CITY, so if I have to, I might end up pointing it to CF to get better VHF reception.

I will consider adding one more antenna Roger1818 - is the low VHF desirable after August? or are most digital gonna be in Hi-VHF and UHF? (The specs are good on my antenna for all UHF, hi and low VHF), isn't it?

I have a friend out-west that is sending me a CM7777 to try out. Is there a risk of too much signal when dealing with UHF? or should I use it only to improve on the VHF stations (CTV, Global)?

Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

PS I will be talking to my neighbour about taking the top of his tree down by next spring. The one in the way.
 
#439 ·
is the low VHF desirable after August?
Yes. Unfortunately CIII has received a license to continue using channel 6 post transition for DTV.

or are most digital gonna be in Hi-VHF and UHF?
True, most stations will be VHF-HI or UHF, but CIII here in Ottawa will be VHF-LO.

(The specs are good on my antenna for all UHF, hi and low VHF), isn't it?
True. The two problems are:

  1. It is a directional antenna, so you would need to point it towards CF
  2. Even if pointed towards CF, CIII is much weaker than the other stations from your location since it is blocked but all the others have line of sight (LOS). This difference in signal levels could cause problems.

Using a separate antenna will allow you to aim it correctly and compensate for the different signal levels.
 
#438 ·
I think pointing the antenna in any direction other than the one you have it (I'm guessing 332 degrees, which is 180 degrees from Herberts Corners and 110 degrees from Camp Fortune), puts Camp Fortune almost directly in the 3617's deepest null for channel 6 and 13. (Looking at Ken Nist's plot for the 3671 at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm3671.html, there is a -30 to -35 dB null for channels 5 and 12, so I think 6 and 13 will be very similar.)

I would not use a preamp. Just aim the antenna at CF, HC, or somewhere in between and you should get all the digital channels. You have to be a bit careful, because the beamwidth around channel 20 is quite tight, and after August 31, Herberts Corners will have digital channels 17, 20, 22, 27, 42, and 43, while Camp Fortune will have 6, 9, 13, 24, 25, 30, 34, and 40. Since CF is so close and LOS for most channels, I would favour Herberts Corners as much as possible, while maintaining sufficient reception of channel 6.
 
#440 ·
CM3971

Thanks TVLurker - I will try that. One question, should the antenna be horizontal or would it be better to be slightly tilt to get more of the "edge"?
Where do you get the info on the future digital channels? do you have a list that is out yet? I do not recognize some of these.
thanks

Roger1818, I might get add a small 4-bay antenna to point to CF if needed. My mast is not very long so I am somewhat limited. And I guess I would need a combiner in that case. Is it better to combine close to the antenna or run a separate co-ax and combine close to the TV?
Last, how do I put my TVFool result to my profile?

You guy are great. thank youl
 
#441 ·
Thanks TVLurker - I will try that. One question, should the antenna be horizontal or would it be better to be slightly tilt to get more of the "edge"?
By my calculations, the top of the Ryan Tower at Camp Fortune is about 2 or 3 degrees up from horizontal. It shouldn't make too much of a difference.

Where do you get the info on the future digital channels? do you have a list that is out yet? I do not recognize some of these.
thanks
Most are from the Industry Canada Broadcast database. DHC moderator stampeder has an easy-to-read web page version of the relevant data -- search for the link.

There are a few stations that are not listed as approved yet (CIVO on channel 30, and CHCH on channel 22), but I'm fairly confident that they'll be on the air by the end of the summer. A CHCH engineer told me by email that they have applied for channel 22. I have no idea why this information does not show up in the broadcasting database yet -- my IC contact has not answered yet.
 
#443 ·
duchaine, so is this a cm-3971 or 3671 ? Your 2 posts titles do not match, looks like it must be 3671.

It's hard to know if you'll need any other antenna if your current one carries the whole UHF/VHF range.

With mine, for example (cm4228hd), I am pointing south and CF is about North-East. Normally you would think this is bad, but the digital stations coming off the back of the antenna are all fine. The analogs coming off the back from CF don't look good at all but i know the signal will be good enough after the transition so I just wait for Aug 2011 before watching those. Do you think you're seeing enough signal for Global in analog now that you think in Aug 2011 the Global digital signal strength will be fine ?
 
#444 ·
One other thought about duchaine's situation. Most people find an FM trap greatly helps the reception of CIII-TV-6. I am not sure, but the situation may even be worse for him since while he has a 2-edge diffraction for CIII, he may have line of sight to many of the high power FM stations, making the difference in received signal strength even greater.
 
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